The problem with amp sims

Vintage65

I've been aware of this for quite some time thanks to Ed S.

Lescaster

Just watched Rhett Shull's video on this and the experiment he does pretty much proves the point of setting interface input gain to zero.

Sporky

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

JonnyBgoode

Interesting thanks, like everyone I have always maxed input gain to just below clipping. Seems weird, surely setting input gain to zero means no level at all?!  Anyway, I haven't tried yet. Will have a play.

Vintage65

Sporky said:

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

Basically you set the gain on your interface to zero, and then adjust the levels in the software. Here is Ed's video, and there is a link inside to a spreadsheet that gives you some values for various interfaces and amp sims.

Vintage65

JonnyBgoode said:

Interesting thanks, like everyone I have always maxed input gain to just below clipping. Seems weird, surely setting input gain to zero means no level at all?!  Anyway, I haven't tried yet. Will have a play.

You adjust the gain in the Amp Sim, see the above video and spreadsheet link. As an example, I have a RME Babyface Pro FS that I use it with Helix Native software, so I set the interface to zero gain at +4dBu, and then I add 1.5dB of level in the software.

jasonbone75

JonnyBgoode said:

Interesting thanks, like everyone I have always maxed input gain to just below clipping. Seems weird, surely setting input gain to zero means no level at all?!  Anyway, I haven't tried yet. Will have a play.

Gain at zero just means don't amplify or attenuate whatever is coming in. The signal from your guitar has a level based on the peak to peak voltage output of your pickups. The interface is passing it through to the digital domain without affecting those original levels in anyway. Due to the differences in converters what that actual "number" is in digital will be different but the point of all this discussion is that you use the controls on the digital side to arrive at your in the box signal level. Or something like that!!

mrkb

Sporky said:

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

It also seems to have sprung up lot of duplicate topic content where everyone covers the same topics (is fresh content very limited at the moment?). There’s been this topic and a lot of “why people are quitting YouTube” videos in my feed recently.

Vintage65

jasonbone75 said:

JonnyBgoode said:

Interesting thanks, like everyone I have always maxed input gain to just below clipping. Seems weird, surely setting input gain to zero means no level at all?!  Anyway, I haven't tried yet. Will have a play.

Gain at zero just means don't amplify or attenuate whatever is coming in. The signal from your guitar has a level based on the peak to peak voltage output of your pickups. The interface is passing it through to the digital domain without affecting those original levels in anyway. Due to the differences in converters what that actual "number" is in digital will be different but the point of all this discussion is that you use the controls on the digital side to arrive at your in the box signal level. Or something like that!!

That's it, except most people have been cranking the gain on their interface, and then feel some disappointment about the quality of the Amp Sim. I know this because I was one of them  

Vintage65

mrkb said:

Sporky said:

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

It also seems to have sprung up lot of duplicate topic content where everyone covers the same topics (is fresh content very limited at the moment?). There’s been this topic and a lot of “why people are quitting YouTube” videos in my feed recently.

Ed S is the originator of this theory, and I have been following his advice for at least 9 months. He has even contacted the Amp Sim makers to find out the technical details they use when coding their plugins.

mrkb

Vintage65 said:

mrkb said:

Sporky said:

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

It also seems to have sprung up lot of duplicate topic content where everyone covers the same topics (is fresh content very limited at the moment?). There’s been this topic and a lot of “why people are quitting YouTube” videos in my feed recently.

Ed S is the originator of this theory, and I have been following his advice for at least 8 months. He has even contacted the Amp Sim makers to find out the technical details they use when coding their plugins.

I agree, he did all the hard work and others jumped on his work.

Vintage65

mrkb said:

Vintage65 said:

mrkb said:

Sporky said:

I assume the YouTube monetisation algorithm rewards incoherent rambling. Five minutes in I still had no idea what the problem was. Videos are a terrible way of transferring this sort of information. 

It also seems to have sprung up lot of duplicate topic content where everyone covers the same topics (is fresh content very limited at the moment?). There’s been this topic and a lot of “why people are quitting YouTube” videos in my feed recently.

Ed S is the originator of this theory, and I have been following his advice for at least 8 months. He has even contacted the Amp Sim makers to find out the technical details they use when coding their plugins.

I agree, he did all the hard work and others jumped on his work.

That's true, but not a lot of people knew about it.

Sporky

Vintage65 said:

Basically you set the gain on your interface to zero, and then adjust the levels in the software. Here is Ed's video, and there is a link inside to a spreadsheet that gives you some values for various interfaces and amp sims.

Ah - thank you. Much more helpful. 

Vintage65

Sporky said:

Vintage65 said:

Basically you set the gain on your interface to zero, and then adjust the levels in the software. Here is Ed's video, and there is a link inside to a spreadsheet that gives you some values for various interfaces and amp sims.

Ah - thank you. Much more helpful. 

The values in the spreadsheet are the technical starting point, and they can be adjusted for taste,

Danny1969

All plugins, and all mixes in the digital domain will turn nasty if you use too much gain and leave no headroom. With 24 bit convertors there is no need and no benefit in going in too hot with any instrument. In the old days with the 16 bit convertors and to a certain extent the 20 bit ones it was better to hit them hard -ish

But whether you use gain on the interface depends on the strength of signal from the guitar. That first stage is analog gain and it's there to get a good signal to noise ratio before the signal hits the AD convertor. Too small a signal isn't ideal, neither is near clipping. 

susbemol

Totally agree with Danny.

I think most people that really know about this stuff would suggest finding a balance rather than blindly following any sort of rule. One size rarely fits all.

Vintage65

Danny1969 said:

All plugins, and all mixes in the digital domain will turn nasty if you use too much gain and leave no headroom. With 24 bit convertors there is no need and no benefit in going in too hot with any instrument. In the old days with the 16 bit convertors and to a certain extent the 20 bit ones it was better to hit them hard -ish

But whether you use gain on the interface depends on the strength of signal from the guitar. That first stage is analog gain and it's there to get a good signal to noise ratio before the signal hits the AD convertor. Too small a signal isn't ideal, neither is near clipping. 

On my interface zero gain gives me 13dBu of headroom which allows me to play hard and soft, and so far I haven't experienced any problems with ED's method. It's also easier to change amp sims when the interface is set to a static value. Anyway, I will definitely look into this as I am always open to learning new things.

Vintage65

susbemol said:

Totally agree with Danny.

I think most people that really know about this stuff would suggest finding a balance rather than blindly following any sort of rule. One size rarely fits all.

I get Danny's point, but this was also the reason why I could never replicate results with the same amp sim when my interface gain levels were constantly changing.

Vintage65

It get's more complicated 

Vintage65

Ed also made a video

PolarityMan

I think this advice  has been floating around for years. Certainly I've been using hi-Z input with zero gain for a long time (maybe 5-10 years). In the metal world best practice recommendation these days is actually to use a DI-box but personally I don't feel like I have a problem so haven't seen the need to chuck money at it.

Btw some hard picking players with high output pickups will actually clip inputs even at zero gain so some people either recommend a pad or a DI box to get provide a  pad.