Is CITES necessary?

leedsyjames

Just letting everyone know that I got my James Tyler Studio Elite imported safely from Japan and no CITES was necessary

guitars4you

leedsyjames said:

Just letting everyone know that I got my James Tyler Studio Elite imported safely from Japan and no CITES was necessary

glad all is good and confirms what I thought - Thanks for the update and hope you enjoy your time with the Tyler 

leedsyjames

guitars4you said:

leedsyjames said:

Just letting everyone know that I got my James Tyler Studio Elite imported safely from Japan and no CITES was necessary

glad all is good and confirms what I thought - Thanks for the update and hope you enjoy your time with the Tyler 

Thank you!

leedsyjames

So, my new Tyler is a Studio Elite 2021 Japan full spec. Midnight colour. Mamywo body with East Indian Rosewood fretboard. It’s a very lively sounding guitar! 

paulmapp8306

guitarjack66 said:

guitars4you said:

guitarjack66 said:

Why does it even get used in the first place? Or was it only used in years gone by? I'd just use a guitar without one and made with many other alternatives. It's just a shame that it's most likely all a bit late in the day to save swathes of the Amazon Rainforests.

In my view, the easy answer is to do away with any need of cites paperwork for what has gone on in the past - Be it ivory, tortoiseshell or Braz rosewood - I think we would all agree that the need to kill an elephant, or a tortoise or indeed to cut down any more trees in the Amazon is not required at all - So let's just accept that all pre 63 Strats can be sold with Braz boards and all pre 64/65 Gibson's can be sold with Braz boards and that applies to local, national or international sales - The same applies to a host of guitars made in recent years that include Braz rosewood - Gibson, Collins, Martin, Fender, PRS have all built such guitars, with or without appropriate documentation - Any Ecco damage can not be rectified - However, in agreement to allow us to sell 'history', CITES now instruct all companies/luthiers, regardless of the size of the company/builder that no more guitars can be built with such woods, with or without any documentation  

However there are/have been grey areas - Reclaimed wood for example - I recall a chat with PRS many years ago about the option they had to buy some Braz rosewood from an old church that had been knocked down - So easy to say, so why not use it - The problem for the authorities is that how can any one say that it is new wood, chopped down last week in Brazil, or 100 year old wood from an old church from the Alamo - Hence ban all from today regardless - I think it is the argument used for not allowing the use of Ivory - How can you ever prove that the 'lump' of ivory you have in your hands is/was acquired over a 100 years ago, be it from a dead, or poached elephant , or indeed has been poached last week, or indeed the elephant died of natural causes last week - As such all ivory used today in any form of production is illegal and I can see why and vouch for it

To clear up who/what is CITES - First of all it is a world wide non-elected 'organisation' - It is a panel of 'experts' who create the 'blue print' as to what is acceptable to protect endangered wild life, plants etc - Then they expect countries and governments around the world to sign up, agree and accept such a blue print - Such a blue print is the minimal that you agree to sign up to as a government - You can endorse further policies of your own if required - The negative is the work load that the appropriate 'authorities' have to undertake with barely any resources - The UK is handled by DEFRA - They have to look at all sorts inc import of illegal animals be it snakes, birds or monkeys, illegal wild life etc - So a few guitars with a bit of Brazilian rosewood from 1948 is not a big deal - And in truth very little is ever done about such guitars

Braz rosewood received a world wide ban in 1992  - But the issue has been made complicated by CITIES and intern relevant departments like DEFRA - If you see a 1992 Strat for sale in the USA - That is fine - You can legally buy it, play it and sell it at a later date in the USA - However if you wish to buy it, today, from a shop in Florida and either bring it back to the UK on a plane, or indeed have it sent to the UK, via UPS, then you have an issue - You need a CITES certificate as it was not already 'residing' in the UK pre 1962 - Same guitar I know and as we said earlier, any Ecco damage was carried out over 60 years ago so what is the issue and you have. good case - But CITES makes no differential for new or used - I think it was never thought about when they sat down at their initial meeting in 1992 - It is doubtful if you'll actually get the appropriate CITES paperwork - Let's assume you did get a certificate - That certificate applies to you and only to you - Put the guitar up for sale, and legally you are meant to acquire a 'fresh' certificate and use the ref number on the original/old certificate as reference - Same over and over again every time it is sold - So a pain - Hence my thought of allowing all 'old history' to continue for sales/ownership - But ban 100% all future builds - think that would create a more clear policy

There has been issues surrounding violin bows that often have ivory on the tip/eye of the bow and many bows are made of pernambuco was is on the CITES list - I've heard stories of leading orchestral musicians running into customs issues whilst touring 

Finally (I'm not a fan of big long posts) - By dad had an old antique conductors baton made from ivory - Something like 200 years old and about 15" long - In an appropriate nice wood case with a brass plaque to indicate who it was presented to - Dad had it as an ornament and I recall he paid almost bugger all for it - Because it is an antique (I think the term is 100 years old to be an antique) it is exempt from needing any CITES paperwork and as such could be legally sold if required - However, if I decided I wanted to give this legal lump of ivory to a luthier, so they could cut it down to use on a top nut, side dot inlays and fingerboard inlays it instantly becomes illegal - As how can you now prove that each part is legal, compared to the large 'sum' - Many old pianos have ivory on the keyboard

Truth be known we could clear up the whole mess and make it easier - As I said above, allow all the history to be exempt, but ban all new usage 

I'd love to answer that but I simply cant be arsed reading it. For the record I am pro the environment but believe its truly fucked because of the horrible people who control the world economies nowadays. If CITES is necessary then fair enough. I simply have no idea why anybody wants one particular type of wood over another. And especially in an electric guitar as I think the wood difference to sound is negligible given all other components. It would most likely matter a bit more in an acoustic but even then there are plenty of other woods available to pursue your hobby/career/profession with.

that's a totally different argument lol - and one I dont agree with in general.

I believe the wood makes a massive difference to the end result tonally - and in some case the aesthetic look is important to some (inc me).  Thats NOT to say I would want something endangered or prohibited on eco grounds - but I do believe we should all be able to choose whatever wood (and other materials) we want for whatever reason we deem important to us as individuals  within those eco guidelines. 

Id be more than happy to own a Brazilian rosewood necked guitar if that guitar had been build pre-regulations.