$2,000 for a part-laminate acoustic?

Timcito

https://www.davesguitar.com/products/222ce-k-dlx-2

I'm intrigued at the confidence of Taylor in demanding two thousand dollars - that's around 1,650 UK pounds - for a part-laminate guitar. The 100 and 200 series Taylors used to be good budget guitars, the classic 'great-value-for-the-money' type instruments. But now, at $2,000, they're competing with handcrafted all-solid instruments in desirable woods by such as Eastman and even all-solid models by Gibson.

Would anyone buy or has anyone bought a Taylor 200 series instrument at this price? There could be something I'm not seeing here, so I'd be interested to know what the reasoning would be. 

bertie

Lowden did some "laminate" tops - in conjunction with Jon Gomm for his sig model

Timcito

bertie said:

Lowden did some "laminate" tops - in conjunction with Jon Gomm for his sig model

I think Lowden enjoys a 'boutique' status, however, that Taylor does not share. Lowden guitars are generally more expensive and conjure the image of a workshop rather than a factory. This may enable Lowden to charge a high price for part-laminate instruments.

earwighoney

bertie said:

Lowden did some "laminate" tops - in conjunction with Jon Gomm for his sig model

That was a double top, there is a difference between that and a laminate top.  The Taylor above I presume is solid top, laminate back and sides. 

There's nothing wrong with a laminate top or back and sides. 

To the OP, prices of Taylors have gone through the roof.  I remember my friend bought an all solid brand new 410 for about £900, it was a great guitar too.

bertie

Timcito said:

bertie said:

Lowden did some "laminate" tops - in conjunction with Jon Gomm for his sig model

I think Lowden enjoys a 'boutique' status, however, that Taylor does not share. Lowden guitars are generally more expensive and conjure the image of a workshop rather than a factory. This may enable Lowden to charge a high price for part-laminate instruments.

its a special two or three layer of spruce with the "grain fibres" off set by a special angle (not 90) to strengthen the top for Jon's style of playing......................

mgaw

Laminate isn’t all bad, but I suspect here allows Koa to be used at an “affordable” price, also profits for Taylor of course.

wouldnt buy one myself 

earwighoney

bertie said:

Timcito said:

bertie said:

Lowden did some "laminate" tops - in conjunction with Jon Gomm for his sig model

I think Lowden enjoys a 'boutique' status, however, that Taylor does not share. Lowden guitars are generally more expensive and conjure the image of a workshop rather than a factory. This may enable Lowden to charge a high price for part-laminate instruments.

its a special two or three layer of spruce with the "grain fibres" off set by a special angle (not 90) to strengthen the top for Jon's style of playing......................

It was spruce on top, nomex in the middle (I presume), cedar on the inside.  If it's like other double tops, the soundboard is thinner than a standard solid top.  

I know Eastman make double tops too.
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/dt30om

bertie

earwighoney said:

 

It was spruce on top, nomex in the middle (I presume), cedar on the inside.  If it's like other double tops, the soundboard is thinner than a standard solid top.  

I know Eastman make double tops too.
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/dt30om

well 1 out of 3 aint bad,  but I was nearly there 

Timcito

earwighoney said:

To the OP, prices of Taylors have gone through the roof. 

Which suggests that enough people are prepared to pay those high prices or else they wouldn't charge them. I just find it curious that someone with $2,000 to spare would choose a part-laminate Taylor. 

Winny_Pooh

Gypsy Jazz guitars traditionally use laminated backs and sides, it's not a matter of cost. Same with some high end acoustic archtops.

PCT57

Jason Kostal’s MDW guitar has laminate sides and they are £18k+ I believe. 

Timcito

Winny_Pooh said:

Gypsy Jazz guitars traditionally use laminated backs and sides, it's not a matter of cost. Same with some high end acoustic archtops.

But Taylor's 200 series guitars are not gypsy jazz or archtops; they are bog-standard factory-made flattops that do not offer all-solid construction, which is a deal-breaker for many as it connotes, rightly or wrongly, a substandard instrument in the flattop world. Yet Taylor are charging all-solid type prices and, presumably, with some success. Has Taylor achieved such a loyal fanbase or reputation for superior quality that it can inflate prices to this degree?

earwighoney

Timcito said:

Which suggests that enough people are prepared to pay those high prices or else they wouldn't charge them. I just find it curious that someone with $2,000 to spare would choose a part-laminate Taylor. 

Same with Martin too.  A brand new D28 is £3.5k now.  They were about £2k or less not too long ago.

All solid American acoustics are incredibly expensive now, inflation is off the charts.

PCT57 said:

Jason Kostal’s MDW guitar has laminate sides and they are £18k+ I believe. 

There's a difference between a conventional laminate and what he and what some other modern guitar makers use.  They go for double/triple sides and use 2/3 separate pieces of wood for the sides.

Timcito

earwighoney said:

All solid American acoustics are incredibly expensive now, inflation is off the charts.

https://www.zzounds.com/item--GIBMCRSG5?siid=298259&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzpj42PTihAMVRy3UAR3djQEeEAQYAyABEgJqMvD_BwE

This is not strictly true. The Gibson G series can be had from $1,000 (the 00) up to around $1,800, depending on the model. The link I've provided is for the G-45, a satin version of the J-45 with all solid spruce and walnut construction and an ebony board to boot. I'm not in the market for a new acoustic right now, but faced with the possibility of either a part-laminate Taylor 200 series at $2,000 and an all-solid Gibson at getting on for half the price, there would be no contest for me. I could also buy a Seagull SWS (solid wood series) US-made guitar for less than $2,000 or, if I wanted something a little fancier and I didn't mind buying Chinese (which I am happy to do), I could get a handcrafted, gloss-finished Eastman in premier woods like Adirondack and rosewood for roughly the same price.

A Taylor 200 series would not even enter the equation, but it clearly does for many people. 

Smellyfingers

Is it somewhat of an irrational prejudice that all solids must be better than laminates?( and do some makers work that feature  to their price advantage? - / like the very nefarious  USA made label).

Whilst it has been very my limited experience that all solids sound better, there should’nt really be a reason that advanced materials technology couldn’t make laminate back and sides ‘tonate’   as nicely as all solid wood,(particularly if the said all solids are a bit crap oily executed) .. or not?!?

Tannin

Yes, Taylor's 2 Series guitars are insanely overpriced. For the same money I can buy excellent all-solid guitars from quality makers in Europe, Australia, and even Japan (which is probably the most expensive place of all to make stuff).

Do the 2 Series Taylors sound as good as all-solid guitars? No. Yes, they are very good for a laminated guitar, but they are not good enough to compete  in the big league. 

Do laminated sides matter? Not in the least. The sides contribute nothing to the sound of a guitar, they just close the box and hold the top and back the right distance apart.  

Does a laminated back matter? Yes. It sounds inferior. You want to listen to the sound of wood vibrating, not glue. (Exception: dead-back designs where the back material does not matter.)

Does America still have capital punishment? I hope so - it needs to be applied to the visually crippled moron who thought it was a good idea to put that awful sunburst on (of all things!) a piece of Koa. Some things are just crimes against nature.

bertie

earwighoney said:

 
All solid American acoustics are incredibly expensive now, inflation is off the charts.

check out some German ones..............................

DavidR

Most of the sound from an acoustic comes from the top. Tolerate laminate/layered for the rest of the instrument. It has minimal effect on tone, appearance or playability. Save the trees!

Taylor are a great brand who are conscious of wood sustainability in their supply chains and marketing. Towards the responsible, ethical end of the spectrum in fact.

As regards the cost of US made. We're back to the 1970's aren't we. Rest of the World team needs a good reason to buy US when there are so many fine acoustics about on the market with much better quality/cost ratios. Those reasons might be qudos, image, collectability, resale and the psychology of the market; but US instruments are no better than many other lovely, cheaper instruments.

thermionic

This is a very “upgraded” 200 series guitar to be fair - the koa wood, gloss finish, and hardshell case don’t normally appear in the 200 series. Most of the 200 series are around half the price, although that’s still slightly more than what I paid for my all-solid 310 - but that was over twenty years ago!

ICBM

I was working on a 224CE-K DLX last week - I was rather surprised to find it was laminate back & sides. I knew the 200 series were cheaper, but somehow I didn’t put the two things together until I idly wondered how much it was new and found the spec - although as usual, it doesn't explicitly say it’s laminate, they call it “layered” .
 
I was quite shocked to find it was £2K, even with the nice wood. I don’t know if it’s ‘overpriced’ - it’s a very nice guitar, and doesn’t sound very obviously ‘laminate’ - but I find solid-Koa guitars can be a bit ‘hard’ and stiff-sounding anyway, so I wasn’t expecting rosewood or mahogany-type resonance. I do like the sunburst too, I think Koa can be a bit too ‘furniture’-looking.

It has to be said the ES-2 electrics do sound very good plugged in, too. Whether that’s worth a premium over a less good system, I’m not sure. (Unless that’s the main reason for buying it.)

On the wider point - no, I don’t think the fact of using laminate should necessarily dictate the price range. The Martin SC13E is also laminate back and sides, but has unusually good tone and projection even by comparison to many all-solid guitars - more obvious to a listener in front of it than the player. Based on sound alone, it’s not overpriced.

BigPaulie

Check Greenfield guitars. New prices can be over $20000 and laminates are common.

On a more "realistic" scale Eastman "Double Top" guitars are well above the price of the Taylor above and have laminated tops. They'll give it another name, but it's laminated wood and some other composite.