Is gear becoming far too expensive?

soma1975

Yep Hendrix didn't want to to take his Octavios out on the road because they were so pricey. 

digitalscream

The thing is...you have choice. On my board, there's a £230 delay, a £200 distortion and a £17 Mosky Silver Horse (which has never crapped out on me, by the way). All of them sound great, and it's about what you can find that works best for you...price doesn't come into it much any more, apart from setting the ceiling.

Sure, there might be the "in 25 years..." argument, but since when have any of us kept gear for 25 years? There might be one or two pieces, but that's about it for most of us. In 25 years' time, at least a third of us will be in the ground and the rest will have moved on the vast majority of our gear, and almost all of that gear's going to be gathering dust in the corner or in landfill anyway - whether it's booteek or not.

It doesn't really have any bearing on value, either. Apart from a few unicorn pieces (eg Klon), the majority of hand-built stuff is unknown to the majority of the market, and thus will always sell for a fraction of its original price. Guitars, pedals, amps...the more unique they are, the less you can get for them on the used market.

So...buy for what you need now, not for what you think you'll need in 20 years' time...because I can almost guarantee that you won't.

ThePrettyDamned

I think there are fewer cons on the market than there were. There was a period where some new "boutique" brands surfaced and simply rehoused existing pedals into a case, wrote spiel about r+d and magic components and then sold them for a huge mark up (Vertex and Freekish Blues (allegedly) come to mind). 

But there are really interesting things out there and they ain't easy to make. I have a wonderful 3-in-1 pedal that has two clones and an original circuit, and I have a super cheap, crap built Aria pedal in the shape of a foot that is probably my favourite fuzzstortiondrive ever. So much so I bought a second one, and if I see one I'll get a third because it will break - and no one has even documented a schematic for it. 

We're spoilt for choice  

I would add, some manufacturers make incredible innovative designs that stand out and nobody buys them. Boss made the adaptive distortion, for example. The industry collectively ignored it, despite it being absolutely brilliant and now they're hard to find, discontinued and  more expensive than retail - all while people were falling over themselves over a rehoused made in China £20 pedal with freekish blues written on it. 

We're a funny bunch. 

ScreamingDave

I think the honest truth is that you can now buy decent, eminently giggable gear for a fraction of the cost (in real terms) than you ever could.  I’ve just started teaching a pal of mine to play guitar, and he’s bought a decent guitar and good sounding amp for around £250.  

The flip side is that there has been a rising breed of amateur guitarists with a fair wad of disposable income, who are willing to pay high prices for boutique amps and fx pedals, and high end guitars, and that provides an increasing market for those.  

Then I think the existence of the top end boutique stuff breeds the idea that anything less costly is somehow less good and everyone needs to strive for the top end stuff if they want a decent sound, and I think that’s a falacy.  

Boromedic

You can make exceptionally great music on any gear, all the pros generally play expensive gear but still sound class on cheap stuff. It's mostly down to the player absolutely.

For me there is something in the finer margins with pricier gear (diminishing returns and all that), that you can't get in the lower price ranges. That doesn't mean cheaper guitars are shite, far from it.

What that does mean is that there is someone for everyone in all ranges, and I also agree with what you say, it's never been a better time to start playing because a lot of lower priced stuff is simply bargainous compared to the shite we had growing up. 

Kurtis

Do you think all the decent cheap gear is partly why the higher end stuff is getting so expensive?

prowla

Handmade in the UK vs. mass-produced in a sweatshop in China.

ScreamingDave

Kurtis said:

Do you think all the decent cheap gear is partly why the higher end stuff is getting so expensive?

I personally think it’s more down to how readily things can be publicised to a massive online audience.  

Back in the 80s, when I started playing seriously, the only place you could get information on what gear was available was by reading the limited musical gear press (I remember one rather grandiosely titled, “International Musician and Recording World”) and mainly American guitar magazines or hanging around local music shops chatting to the local musos.  

The music mags only had a limited number of bits of kit they could review, so it would normally be the latest offerings from the big corporations.  Small boutique manufacturers wouldn’t get a look-in, and even if they did most of the readership wouldn’t be able to get hold of them, anyway.  

Now the music “press” has shifted online, with a multitude of YouTube channels and Instagram bloggers, all ravenously hungry for unique content, which is a Godsend for low volume manufacturers. That creates a greater demand, hence higher prices.  

Kurtis

I think to a certain extent Gibson don't want Epiphone to be in the same market as harley benton so how do you show they are better? Make them more expensive. Then the Gibson branded guitars have to go up too.

Maybe. Probably a factor to some extent. 

Voxsupertwin

Kurtis said:

I think to a certain extent Gibson don't want Epiphone to be in the same market as harley benton so how do you show they are better? Make them more expensive. Then the Gibson branded guitars have to go up too.

Maybe. Probably a factor to some extent. 

I’ve got 3 Harley Bentons, 2 Teles and a P Bass and they are excellent…..

I also have far more expensive USA guitars, which do look nicer and are put together a bit better but so far as sound and playability are concerned there isn’t much, if anything in it …

So there’s the choice, be a big name snob and fork out, or play it cool with a non descript and let your fingers do the talk and the walk

Rocker

prowla said:

Handmade in the UK vs. mass-produced in a sweatshop in China.

Is there really much ‘hand made’ kit, apart from @ThorpyFX, made in the UK these days?  FX pedals are relatively cheap due to Far East manufacturing, I don’t see any case for arguing that they are too expensive mainly due to Far Eastern production. 

ThorpyFX

Rocker said:

prowla said:

Handmade in the UK vs. mass-produced in a sweatshop in China.

Is there really much ‘hand made’ kit, apart from @ThorpyFX, made in the UK these days?  FX pedals are relatively cheap due to Far East manufacturing, I don’t see any case for arguing that they are too expensive mainly due to Far Eastern production. 

Origin have their pedals assembled in the UK, they use a mix of SMD and through hole but all really high quality too.

I often look at the cheap clone knockoff pedals and wonder whether I'm the idiot. We spend more on some of our components than those pedals cost retail. The maximum of a run we've done in one go has been 500 units (which is a lot i know). But compare that to machine made consumer electronics pumped out in the thousands and you can see why we don't benefit from economies of scale and so stuff costs more. We spend a lot on R&D for pedals we design, the pedal coming next for instance has taken years to design and engineer everything custom from the case to the PCB etc.

Cheap stuff is cheap for a reason, and for some peoples tastes thats good enough. Others (like myself) like to support smaller brands. I only buy things when i know the quality is higher because if you boil it down nobody needs anything they buy for fun to survive. Therefore if its going to be for fun, you might as well enjoy the best version of the thing you can afford, life is too short. 

Heartfeltdawn

digitalscream said:

Sure, there might be the "in 25 years..." argument, but since when have any of us kept gear for 25 years? 

Agreed, and that helps distort people's image of price changes. I bought a Boss GT-3 a few years ago that had the original receipt in with it: £399 in 1998. Using the BoE inflation calculator, £399 in 1998 is £750 now. Well, a Stomp XL is £600. A Pod Go is £400. Overall a Pod Go beats the crap out of a GT-3 so in some regards we get way more for our money that we used to. 

I bought my Epi Dot in November 2000 from the much missed Peter Cook's Guitar World. £329 it cost complete the the hilarity of ordering by phone, them taking the card details, sending me the Switch receipt in the post, and me sending it back to them once I'd signed it. Ah, the good ol' days... £329 in 2000 is now £598 in 2024. Andertons have the Epiphone ES-335 priced at £599. Go to Coda and you can pick them up for £500. The modern Epi 335 is a better made instrument than my Dot. No question. Better pickups, better tuners, better hardware, better finishing. 

ScreamingDave said:

I think the honest truth is that you can now buy decent, eminently giggable gear for a fraction of the cost (in real terms) than you ever could.  I’ve just started teaching a pal of mine to play guitar, and he’s bought a decent guitar and good sounding amp for around £250.  

The flip side is that there has been a rising breed of amateur guitarists with a fair wad of disposable income, who are willing to pay high prices for boutique amps and fx pedals, and high end guitars, and that provides an increasing market for those.  

Then I think the existence of the top end boutique stuff breeds the idea that anything less costly is somehow less good and everyone needs to strive for the top end stuff if they want a decent sound, and I think that’s a falacy.  

This exactly. 

darthed1981

The richest generation ever to have lived is between the ages of 50-70, the richest part of life, and they also happen to be the "rock" generation - who grew up with the sounds of Clapton, Zep and all the other drug-addled loons who made occasionally incredible music in the late 60s and 70s.

If I sold guitar gear, I'd have a very expensive top-end as well.  Look at the sodding Rolex thread here, loads of posters showing off their wealth and/or knowledge of expensive watches - fair play to them BTW - but you can see the crossover to guitar gear and the market that clearly exists for a high-end.

You'd be daft to NOT cater to a market because you are worried people not in said market consider you expensive.

However...

I think two products for me sum up just how CHEAP gear is at the minute.

Squier Classic Vibe
Boss Katana

Pair those two for < £500 and you have a perfectly giggable rig in any venue, any time.  For the "bedroom" guitarist, which many of us are, you are in hog heaven.

Don't like those?  Well don't worry, because they started a flood of super-affordable products with exceptional capabilities which mean you can, with some confidence go "wow - I'd love to try a Mustang... I could get a Squier Bullet for £120!"

Truly, it is a great time to be a guitar player.

darthed1981

prowla said:

Handmade in the UK vs. mass-produced in a sweatshop massive factory with the latest equipment staffed by people who can actually pay their electricity bills on their wages in China.

FTFY

Kittyfrisk

darthed1981 said:

The richest generation ever to have lived is between the ages of 50-70, the richest part of life, and they also happen to be the "rock" generation - who grew up with the sounds of Clapton, Zep and all the other drug-addled loons who made occasionally incredible music in the late 60s and 70s.

If I sold guitar gear, I'd have a very expensive top-end as well.  Look at the sodding Rolex thread here, loads of posters showing off their wealth and/or knowledge of expensive watches - fair play to them BTW - but you can see the crossover to guitar gear and the market that clearly exists for a high-end.

You'd be daft to NOT cater to a market because you are worried people not in said market consider you expensive.

However...

I think two products for me sum up just how CHEAP amazingly affordable gear is at the minute.

Squier Classic Vibe
Boss Katana

Pair those two for < £500 and you have a perfectly giggable rig in any venue, any time.  For the "bedroom" guitarist, which many of us are, you are in hog heaven.

Don't like those?  Well don't worry, because they started a flood of super-affordable products with exceptional capabilities which mean you can, with some confidence go "wow - I'd love to try a Mustang... I could get a Squier Bullet for £120!"

Truly, it is a great time to be a guitar player.

I'm a bit conflicted over the sheer volume of very good, affordable guitars being produced.
They all use limited materials/resources to make, regardless of price.
It might be a great time to be a guitar player, but possibly not for an ecologically aware guitar player?

darthed1981

Kittyfrisk said:

darthed1981 said:

The richest generation ever to have lived is between the ages of 50-70, the richest part of life, and they also happen to be the "rock" generation - who grew up with the sounds of Clapton, Zep and all the other drug-addled loons who made occasionally incredible music in the late 60s and 70s.

If I sold guitar gear, I'd have a very expensive top-end as well.  Look at the sodding Rolex thread here, loads of posters showing off their wealth and/or knowledge of expensive watches - fair play to them BTW - but you can see the crossover to guitar gear and the market that clearly exists for a high-end.

You'd be daft to NOT cater to a market because you are worried people not in said market consider you expensive.

However...

I think two products for me sum up just how CHEAP amazingly affordable gear is at the minute.

Squier Classic Vibe
Boss Katana

Pair those two for < £500 and you have a perfectly giggable rig in any venue, any time.  For the "bedroom" guitarist, which many of us are, you are in hog heaven.

Don't like those?  Well don't worry, because they started a flood of super-affordable products with exceptional capabilities which mean you can, with some confidence go "wow - I'd love to try a Mustang... I could get a Squier Bullet for £120!"

Truly, it is a great time to be a guitar player.

I'm a bit conflicted over the sheer volume of very good, affordable guitars being produced.
They all use limited materials/resources to make, regardless of price.
It might be a great time to be a guitar player, but possibly not for an ecologically aware guitar player?

Definitely a point.  One could argue indeed there are already enough guitars in the world and no need to build more.

The counter is of course that people still need work, and with sustainable woods and clean energy, we can still produce and consume to a certain extent.

Either way, you would look at a lot of other industries before you got anywhere near guitars, fashion for example...

OriginEffects

ThorpyFX said:

Rocker said:

prowla said:

Handmade in the UK vs. mass-produced in a sweatshop in China.

Is there really much ‘hand made’ kit, apart from @ThorpyFX, made in the UK these days?  FX pedals are relatively cheap due to Far East manufacturing, I don’t see any case for arguing that they are too expensive mainly due to Far Eastern production. 

Origin have their pedals assembled in the UK, they use a mix of SMD and through hole but all really high quality too.

I often look at the cheap clone knockoff pedals and wonder whether I'm the idiot. We spend more on some of our components than those pedals cost retail. The maximum of a run we've done in one go has been 500 units (which is a lot i know). But compare that to machine made consumer electronics pumped out in the thousands and you can see why we don't benefit from economies of scale and so stuff costs more. We spend a lot on R&D for pedals we design, the pedal coming next for instance has taken years to design and engineer everything custom from the case to the PCB etc.

Cheap stuff is cheap for a reason, and for some peoples tastes thats good enough. Others (like myself) like to support smaller brands. I only buy things when i know the quality is higher because if you boil it down nobody needs anything they buy for fun to survive. Therefore if its going to be for fun, you might as well enjoy the best version of the thing you can afford, life is too short. 

Can confirm, we put things together here in Buckingham. Our other manufacturing processes; SMD, Through-hole and test work are also conducted in the UK.

There are plenty of UK builders doing some great work, Thorpy obviously, Fredric Effects, Intensive Care Audio, and Audio Kitchen come to mind. Similar to Thorpy, it's wild how many pedals are made, shipped, and sold for considerably less than our raw material cost.

A wonderful time to be a player, great options at almost every price!

- Jacob

Greatape

darthed1981 said:

The richest generation ever to have lived is between the ages of 50-70, the richest part of life, and they also happen to be the "rock" generation - who grew up with the sounds of Clapton, Zep and all the other drug-addled loons who made occasionally incredible music in the late 60s and 70s.

If I sold guitar gear, I'd have a very expensive top-end as well.  Look at the sodding Rolex thread here, loads of posters showing off their wealth and/or knowledge of expensive watches - fair play to them BTW - but you can see the crossover to guitar gear and the market that clearly exists for a high-end.

You'd be daft to NOT cater to a market because you are worried people not in said market consider you expensive.

However...

I think two products for me sum up just how CHEAP gear is at the minute.

Squier Classic Vibe
Boss Katana

Pair those two for < £500 and you have a perfectly giggable rig in any venue, any time.  For the "bedroom" guitarist, which many of us are, you are in hog heaven.

Don't like those?  Well don't worry, because they started a flood of super-affordable products with exceptional capabilities which mean you can, with some confidence go "wow - I'd love to try a Mustang... I could get a Squier Bullet for £120!"

Truly, it is a great time to be a guitar player.

I tried a Jet jazzmaster shaped thing recently and was V impressed. Not just 'impressed for the money.'

If I lost it all tomorrow and needed a set of kit to gig, I'd get a Jet of some type and a Mk2 katana W/gafc and a TU3. Boom. 

NelsonP

I hand built a Tonebender clone during lockdown. Through hole components, lovingly hand soldered, hand painted and hand checked. Turns out I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron.

If anyone is interested in parting with £hundreds (or more) for this hand built one-off, please pm me