Lap steel / Pedal Steel

stickyfiddle

Anyone play either (or both)? 

I’ve had a hankering to learn pedal steel for a while and just discovered the existence of the Duesenberg Fairytale which is a chunky lapsteel with palm benders. 

https://www.duesenberg.de/en/lapsteels/fairytale/

This guy does a fine job of making it sound spectacular 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5f7BOuMDeE/?igsh=MWgxem1mZzZyMXZrcg==

ToneControl

palm benders are a bit of fun, I have one.
I think it's best for folks to start with 2 or 3 lap steels with different tunings (because the benders are the icing on the cake, 95% of the work is getting the basic technique working),
I keep about 4 tunings on the go. You need different string gauges for some of them.

G, D, C6
Em if you like your Gilmour - but a bit niche


Everyone I have ever heard says that pedal steel is way too complex to dip into.

merlin

I've owned a Gretsch lap steel to which I fitted two Duesenberg palm benders. I also owned two pedal steel guitars, one with a single E9 and the other a double E9 and C6.

I wish I had the room to keep one set up all the time and I wish I had the strength and vehicle (and driver's license) to transport one.

It's a magnificent beast. 

stickyfiddle

Cheers - looks like there's plenty to chew on. I assume there's no need to go straight in with something like the Duesy if I can fit palm benders to something considerably cheaper... 

I def don't want to go straight to pedal and don't want more than 6 strings to kick off. 

No clue re tunings to date. I'm very happy in Open D and G on guitar but never used open tunings for slide, somewhat ironically. I probably need to find out what works for the sort of thing I want to play - think indie/alt-country/americana sorts of stuff. Luke Cyrus above uses a hybrid G / d tuning (GBDF♯AD) and nails the sort of thing I want to play, so perhaps something like that would be a good place to start.  

chickenbonejohn

I play a bit of lap steel, and my advice would be to get an inexpensive 6 string and learn the basics. Techniques such as slanting the bar and bending behind the bar are the way towards understanding how to get the extra effects that can be done on a pedal steel. You'll pay a lot of money for the Duesenberg, and with the palm benders my feeling is that you might be tempted to fiddle around with the benders rather than properly learn those slants and bends which are part of a solid lap steel technique. I've just taken a look at that video, and to get a lot of those classic cool pedal steel sounds, he's using slants and behind the bar bends rather than the palm benders, so you'd be able to do that on pretty much any cheap basic lap steel. A slightly odd thing about the Duesenberg is that it is 25 1/5 inch scale, whereas most lap steels are shorter, often around 22 1/2 inch. That, together with the twin pickups sort of feels like they are trying to sell this to people who aren't familiar with lap steel and who want something more "normal", ie standard guitar scale length, twin pickups and the palm benders sort of suggest you can make it sound like a pedal steel without learning either trad lap steel or pedal steel techniques and theory.

stickyfiddle

@chickenbonejohn Cheers - good guidance and I was basically already aware of that so v good to have it corroborated by someone with more experience. I used to have a song with a lot of slanted slide on regular guitar for major/minor moves so that's not too alien at least. 

I'm in Abu Dhabi so will have to see if it's possible to get anything locally....!

Keefy

I’ve just acquired a Duesenberg Pomona in the last week so I can only report on my experience so far as a complete noob.

I’ve never got far trying to play slide on a regular guitar but I’m getting on quite well with lap steel. I plumped for open E tuning and a heavy Dunlop ‘bullet’ tone bar, and I’m using a pick-and-fingers approach that I found helps with string damping. It’s all very unfamiliar to start with but rewards perseverance - I’ve played it every day so far. It probably helps that I’m into it for the substantial cost of the Pomona, rather than a budget/starter instrument that I can afford to let slide (sorry!).

Stuckfast

I am mostly playing pedal steel these days. The learning curve is severe and you really need to get a good instrument, not a crummy student model. But it does have the advantage that you can then pick up things like dobro fairly easily. Once you get beyond the worst part of the learning curve, you also appreciate how much more versatile pedal steel is than any other slide instrument.

ToneControl

For lap steel, some non-obvious important things are - get a steel you like. I prefer the shubb SP1
and use thick strings. 15s are a standard choice. The strings should be nice and tight to get the best tone and sustain


SP1: the round bit on the end lets you slide up or "fret" 2 adjacent strings at once
the overall shape lets you do vibrato by rocking instead of sliding it 

ToneControl

stickyfiddle said:

Cheers - looks like there's plenty to chew on. I assume there's no need to go straight in with something like the Duesy if I can fit palm benders to something considerably cheaper... 

I def don't want to go straight to pedal and don't want more than 6 strings to kick off. 

No clue re tunings to date. I'm very happy in Open D and G on guitar but never used open tunings for slide, somewhat ironically. I probably need to find out what works for the sort of thing I want to play - think indie/alt-country/americana sorts of stuff. Luke Cyrus above uses a hybrid G / d tuning (GBDF♯AD) and nails the sort of thing I want to play, so perhaps something like that would be a good place to start.  

I have a Gretsch with 2 palm bender, it works well, I still play the normal ones more tbh

ToneControl

What's uniquely wonderful about lap steels is that if you like them, you can buy vintage ones from the 1940s for an affordable price

PAL

As a guitarist I wanted to play pedal steel and in the mid 1970s I bought a Sho-Bud Maverick 10 string E9 tuning but I
 had issues with tuning etc it was down to me not having enough knowledge ( There was not YouTube in them days  )
 I sold it !
 I decided in 2012 I wanted to try again so ordered a custom built Carter S-10 again E9 tuning I understood more about the
 pedal steel and even bought a Peterson strobe tuner which at the time was about £250 and it made a difference this is
 because you can't tune a pedal steel with a basic guitar tuner. Pedal steel guitar use a tempered tuning a bit like a piano
 and the Peterson tuning had a setting for pedal steel . Once again I sold my steel and now regret it !
 I still feel I would like to buy one because I love the instrument.
 There are quite a few things to get your head around but it's not impossible. 
  I'm 73 now and as a guitarist I feel I get written off because of that yet had I continued with the pedal steel I think the attitude
  towards pedal steel players is different and would be more accepted.
  My advice is if you want to go down the pedal steel route buy the best you can get because you don't want to spend a lot of
  time tuning a steel guitar that won't stay in tune ! You can check out YouTube now so there is lots of advice and help there.
  Lap steel is great but when I think about buying one I just go back to wanting a pedal steel once again.
  I don't know if you play slide guitar but that is somewhere to start. You could then just sit with a guitar across your lap as
  well.
  If you imagine tuning you guitar to the chord of E you could play E all strings open for A put your finger or slide across the
  fifth fret and for B you do the same across the seventh fret.
  with a pedal steel you can just change chords without using your hands and using two pedals and one knee leaver !
  Check out some YouTube videos on lap steel and pedal steel I'm sure it will make sense and I'm sure you would enjoy it.
  I hope this helps a little.

stickyfiddle

Ok so looks like noone here sells even the cheapest of cheap Steels, so I'll be putting feelers around the Facebook pages then probably ending up on Thomman or Amazon, which is a bit rubbish. I guess I don't have to worry about setup on one of those, and I can fix electronics, so it's low risk

I def want the option of benders though. Not into the boggo fixed open tuning blues thing AT ALL... 

gatheredinsong

stickyfiddle said:

Ok so looks like noone here sells even the cheapest of cheap Steels, so I'll be putting feelers around the Facebook pages then probably ending up on Thomman or Amazon, which is a bit rubbish. I guess I don't have to worry about setup on one of those, and I can fix electronics, so it's low risk

I def want the option of benders though. Not into the boggo fixed open tuning blues thing AT ALL... 

As others have mentioned, the Gretsch ones can fit benders, giving you the option of adding them. I have an old Gold Tone that they would fit on too.

Another option to consider in the 'in between Gretsch and Duesenberg' price bracket is this: 
https://certano.fr/shop/

A fairly small concern so perhaps they would ship to you there?

stickyfiddle

gatheredinsong said:

stickyfiddle said:

Ok so looks like noone here sells even the cheapest of cheap Steels, so I'll be putting feelers around the Facebook pages then probably ending up on Thomman or Amazon, which is a bit rubbish. I guess I don't have to worry about setup on one of those, and I can fix electronics, so it's low risk

I def want the option of benders though. Not into the boggo fixed open tuning blues thing AT ALL... 

As others have mentioned, the Gretsch ones can fit benders, giving you the option of adding them. I have an old Gold Tone that they would fit on too.

Another option to consider in the 'in between Gretsch and Duesenberg' price bracket is this: 
https://certano.fr/shop/

A fairly small concern so perhaps they would ship to you there?

Yeah I just saw that Certano one - it looks fab and fairly premium without being silly money. I do actually have a forwarding service that I can get stuff shipped from a bunch of countries, but generally prefer not putting instruments through them. 

That price feels not far off what it would cost for a Gretsch+Benders+Bridge anyway, so might well be my best option. It certainly looks gorgeous, which is half the battle  

And sounds *great* 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG3cQw3OCTU

koss59

My dad has a Gretsch with Duesy Benders fitted I don’t think he’s using. Can always ask if you’re interested.

Stuckfast

PAL said:

  I'm 73 now and as a guitarist I feel I get written off because of that yet had I continued with the pedal steel I think the attitude towards pedal steel players is different and would be more accepted.
  

This is 110% true. I've just joined a band of people half my age as steel player and no-one seems to bat an eyelid. Would be a different story on standard guitar. 

stickyfiddle

koss59 said:

My dad has a Gretsch with Duesy Benders fitted I don’t think he’s using. Can always ask if you’re interested.

Def interested but I suspect logistics to Abu Dhabi would be too much of a pain for the money! 

stickyfiddle

Stuckfast said:

PAL said:

  I'm 73 now and as a guitarist I feel I get written off because of that yet had I continued with the pedal steel I think the attitude towards pedal steel players is different and would be more accepted.
  

This is 110% true. I've just joined a band of people half my age as steel player and no-one seems to bat an eyelid. Would be a different story on standard guitar. 

Good to know! I do have half an eye on doing session work as an eventual career-change / semi-retirement option. Between guitar, bass and steel I figure i might be able to stay reasonably busy

TeleKinesis

Reading this with interest, I've wanted to take up pedal steel for a long time.

The challenge for me is not so much the complexity (I think I've got a reasonable grasp of theory ... maybe), but more knowing what to buy, and where from.

Don't buy a cheap one, ok got it. I'll save up and get something decent.

Where from, though? And how do you tell what's worth it?

Some initial searching has revealed almost no shops in the UK that stock them, and those that do are mysteriously opaque about cost and availability. I don't understand it, is there something around being imported to order?

Seen some second hand for about £2k+ ... pretty big chunk of money for something I have no idea on how to check condition or playability  

Hopefully learn something here  

barnstorm

Edit: ignore me, you’re talking about pedal only. Yeah, big expensive buggers!