Wish my car had a spare wheel...

Kittyfrisk

robgilmo said:

GuyR said:

robgilmo said:

GuyR said:

No spare wheel is one of the more illogical aspects of modern motoring. 

Apart from the inconvenience and danger caused by long periods stranded waiting for the rescue service, when you could have fixed the problem yourself in 10 minutes, the use of tyre sealant foam renders a perfectly sound tyre irreparable. 

The problem is a lot of people cant change a tyre, 

Respectfully, the problem is that people with the most basic ability to change a tyre are not provided with the means by the manufacturer. 

Like a trolley jack, axle stand, big hammer if its stuck and a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts? Thats to do it properly, car manufacturers dont want you to be jacking up your car with a scissor jack then man handling a heavy 20 inch wheel off a car jacked on a scissor jack then tightening up the replacement with a wheel brace, all at the side of a busy road.
There are actually a lot of people out there who dont want to do this, or are unable to, so what can car manufacturers do? The wheel wont change itself so they are trying to make it so you dont have to, they arnt quite there yet though and I agree, the option should be there for those that can.

Hmmmm, no, you don't actually need a "trolley jack, axle stand, big hammer if its stuck and a torque wrench"  95+% of the time to change a wheel & get you out of the situation. Nor do you really need a sheet or blanket to lie on, lump of wood/plastic/metal to steady the jack & stop it sinking into the ground, warm waterproof coat, decent torch, first aid kit, emergency warning triangle & flashing amber lights  etc. etc.
All these items fall under the ' very highly desirable but not strictly necessary' category in an emergency wheel change scenario.
As with most things in life, everything depends on an individuals personal life experience, capability, preparedness & willingness to engage in the necessary activity. Plus a spare wheel, the basic required tools & some common sense 

ESBlonde

The joy of being ‘recovered’ home with a flat at night is that you wake up in the morning with a flat tyre and a car you still can’t drive!

boogieman

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

ICBM

boogieman said:

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

It's a good idea to carry one of those extendable wheel nut handles - it gives you a lot more leverage. Although I normally just use an old socket bar and jump on the end of it... never failed to get one undone like that yet. (And I'm not very heavy!)

Kittyfrisk

ICBM said:

boogieman said:

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

It's a good idea to carry one of those extendable wheel nut handles - it gives you a lot more leverage. Although I normally just use an old socket bar and jump on the end of it... never failed to get one undone like that yet. (And I'm not very heavy!)

Pretty much the ideal solution. The photo I posted earlier has my extending wheel nut wrench tucked in on the left of the wheel   

boogieman

ICBM said:

boogieman said:

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

It's a good idea to carry one of those extendable wheel nut handles - it gives you a lot more leverage. Although I normally just use an old socket bar and jump on the end of it... never failed to get one undone like that yet. (And I'm not very heavy!)

I had to use a six foot length of scaffold pole to shift the wheel nuts on our car (and I am a fat bastard!) I was just trying to replace the brake pads, but then found the caliper bolts were done up equally tight. Eventually I had to give up and get it done by a garage. 

robgilmo

Kittyfrisk said:

robgilmo said:

GuyR said:

robgilmo said:

GuyR said:

No spare wheel is one of the more illogical aspects of modern motoring. 

Apart from the inconvenience and danger caused by long periods stranded waiting for the rescue service, when you could have fixed the problem yourself in 10 minutes, the use of tyre sealant foam renders a perfectly sound tyre irreparable. 

The problem is a lot of people cant change a tyre, 

Respectfully, the problem is that people with the most basic ability to change a tyre are not provided with the means by the manufacturer. 

Like a trolley jack, axle stand, big hammer if its stuck and a torque wrench to tighten the wheel nuts? Thats to do it properly, car manufacturers dont want you to be jacking up your car with a scissor jack then man handling a heavy 20 inch wheel off a car jacked on a scissor jack then tightening up the replacement with a wheel brace, all at the side of a busy road.
There are actually a lot of people out there who dont want to do this, or are unable to, so what can car manufacturers do? The wheel wont change itself so they are trying to make it so you dont have to, they arnt quite there yet though and I agree, the option should be there for those that can.

Hmmmm, no, you don't actually need a "trolley jack, axle stand, big hammer if its stuck and a torque wrench"  95+% of the time to change a wheel & get you out of the situation. Nor do you really need a sheet or blanket to lie on, lump of wood/plastic/metal to steady the jack & stop it sinking into the ground, warm waterproof coat, decent torch, first aid kit, emergency warning triangle & flashing amber lights  etc. etc.
All these items fall under the ' very highly desirable but not strictly necessary' category in an emergency wheel change scenario.
As with most things in life, everything depends on an individuals personal life experience, capability, preparedness & willingness to engage in the necessary activity. Plus a spare wheel, the basic required tools & some common sense 

My experience might be a little different from yours, I think common sense is overrated, people assume they have it, common sense would tell you not to be working on a car without an axle stand, in an emercency situation spraying gunk into a tyre and inflating it is a hell of a lot safer than an inexperienced person removing the wheel, its just easier, safer, less change to damage yourself or your car, I know quite a few people who could change a wheel blindfolded, I also know quite a few people who I wouldnt trust to adjust a mirror never mind change a wheel, I have seen people use common sense to do vehicle repairs then pay a tech to put it right.

I suppose car manufacturers could , if they wanted to , give the option of a full spare and tools, would people pay the extra though? Who knows.

Jono111

I had to pay for the optional spare. The problem is there is a large waste of space if you don't want a spare and I would imagine it's cheaper to make the car without the spare storage space. I can't see the option to buy one lasting too much longer 

Tannin

TTony said:

For sure @Tannin ; - I was talking about the "luxury" SUVs, not the workhorses (we have a 19yo Subaru Forester; workhorse, not SUV!).

Ahh yes. Best cars ever.  I have done more than half a million kilometres in SG Foresters - 300k+ i in the red one I bought new in 2004, then I swapped it (still going better than strong) for a green 2007 one with only 100k on it ('07 was last of the mighty SGs - they went to the poncified and inferior SH after that). Still driving the green one, pushing past 300,000 kilometres on it now, and no plans to change. Mrs Tannin has a late-model Outback, which is nice and goes well, but for myself I much prefer the rugged simplicity of the SG.

(And I could tell you a few funny stories about people driving hairy-chested "real" 4WDs being very, very surprised at where you can go in a Forester, especially if you've given it a little bit of a lift.)

BillDL

I carry a 4-sided "spider" wheel spanner.  You can get double-handed leverage on it and it's a whole lot faster and easier spinning the nuts or studs back on.  It sits on top of an old towel and a pair of gloves that are on top of my spare wheel in a bag in the spare wheel well under the "floor" of the boot.

The only time your car should be in danger of toppling off a normal jack is while you are lifting the wheel off the hub and putting the spare back onto the hub.  The nuts/studs should be loosened off (but not removed) while the wheel is on the ground, and similarly the nuts/studs should be nipped up before lowering it to the ground where they can then be properly tightened.  You should not be applying force to initially undo the nuts/studs or to tighten them while the car is jacked up or you could certainly wobble it off the jack.

This is a skill that should have been taught to new drivers as part of the driving course / test all these years along with breakdown roadside protocol, filling the windscreen skooshy bottle, filling the car with fuel, and other basics.  There is one multiple choice question in the car licence theory test that asks (paraphrased from memory) what you should do if you happen upon a car accident and somebody is injured.  The proper and correct answer, which is nothing more than common sense, is not to put you or others at further risk and to ensure that the scene is protected from further collisions, for example by putting out warning signs or asking somebody to walk back along the road with a Hi-Viz and a torch to warn motorists.  No, the actual answer to that question is "make sure that the injured person's airway is free and unobstructed".  I question what the hell First Aid has to do with a driving theory test that should be concerned with road and motoring safety and protocol, especially when there is the potential for other cars to crash into the scene and injure or kill more people while you are attending to an injured person.  Phone 999 would be the alternative correct answer, but it isn't.

robgilmo

BillDL said:

I carry a 4-sided "spider" wheel spanner.  You can get double-handed leverage on it and it's a whole lot faster and easier spinning the nuts or studs back on.  It sits on top of an old towel and a pair of gloves that are on top of my spare wheel in a bag in the spare wheel well under the "floor" of the boot.

The only time your car should be in danger of toppling off a normal jack is while you are lifting the wheel off the hub and putting the spare back onto the hub.  The nuts/studs should be loosened off (but not removed) while the wheel is on the ground, and similarly the nuts/studs should be nipped up before lowering it to the ground where they can then be properly tightened.  You should not be applying force to initially undo the nuts/studs or to tighten them while the car is jacked up or you could certainly wobble it off the jack.

This is a skill that should have been taught to new drivers as part of the driving course / test all these years along with breakdown roadside protocol, filling the windscreen skooshy bottle, filling the car with fuel, and other basics.  There is one multiple choice question in the car licence theory test that asks (paraphrased from memory) what you should do if you happen upon a car accident and somebody is injured.  The proper and correct answer, which is nothing more than common sense, is not to put you or others at further risk and to ensure that the scene is protected from further collisions, for example by putting out warning signs or asking somebody to walk back along the road with a Hi-Viz and a torch to warn motorists.  No, the actual answer to that question is "make sure that the injured person's airway is free and unobstructed".  I question what the hell First Aid has to do with a driving theory test that should be concerned with road and motoring safety and protocol, especially when there is the potential for other cars to crash into the scene and injure or kill more people while you are attending to an injured person.  Phone 999 would be the alternative correct answer, but it isn't.

It takes seconds to apply first aid to someone with, naah, traffic calming. I think that part must rely on the understanding that not everyone drives like a loon, and if one loon has already crashed the odds of another loon coming around the same corner at the same time as the first is pretty slim. 

BillDL

I gave my opinion based on years of previous experience at taking charge of the scene at vehicle accidents and it is far from uncommon for another loon or multiple loons to crash into the scene or hit pedestrians standing out on the roadway or tending to people through open car doors at an unprotected scene.  Anybody that has had to stand on the hard shoulder of a motorway and feel the effect of cars, trucks and trailers thundering by will attest to how dangerous it is to be there.  I had loads of close calls while attending vehicular accidents and trying to make the scene safe for everybody.

Anyway, given that the majority of punctures are discovered after the vehicle has been parked up off the road, roadside wheel changing is thankfully far less frequent than having to do so off the road somewhere.

robgilmo

BillDL said:

I gave my opinion based on years of previous experience at taking charge of the scene at vehicle accidents and it is far from uncommon for another loon or multiple loons to crash into the scene or hit pedestrians standing out on the roadway or tending to people through open car doors at an unprotected scene.  Anybody that has had to stand on the hard shoulder of a motorway and feel the effect of cars, trucks and trailers thundering by will attest to how dangerous it is to be there.  I had loads of close calls while attending vehicular accidents and trying to make the scene safe for everybody.

Anyway, given that the majority of punctures are discovered after the vehicle has been parked up off the road, roadside wheel changing is thankfully far less frequent than having to do so off the road somewhere.

Thats my point exactly, although, if there are other people there then anyone with first aid training shouldnt be the one calming the traffic, Ive been on the scene a couple of times, first thing I do is ensure the vehicles ignition is switched off while assessing the situation. 

Tannin

BillDL said:

I gave my opinion based on years of previous experience at taking charge of the scene at vehicle accidents and it is far from uncommon for another loon or multiple loons to crash into the scene or hit pedestrians standing out on the roadway or tending to people through open car doors at an unprotected scene.  Anybody that has had to stand on the hard shoulder of a motorway and feel the effect of cars, trucks and trailers thundering by will attest to how dangerous it is to be there.  I had loads of close calls while attending vehicular accidents and trying to make the scene safe for everybody.

Quite. This is why civilised countries (sadly, this does not include Australia) mandate carriage of a high-vis florescent warning triangle alongside the spare. Without that warning sign, the car is deemed unroadworthy. Drivers with a clue also carry a high-vis vest in the car at all times. 

(Hmmmm ... I took mine out to wash it a while back. Did I remember to put it back? I'd better check!)

PS: If it was up to me, I would deem any car without a spare wheel unroadworthy, especially outside city limits. Space saver will do at a pinch. (Dreadful things but better than nothing.)

sev112

I agree with you both
But how often do we see a Halfords warning triangle on the road so my perception is that you get drivers are not aware of them 

Jono111

I suspect for many these days the priority when coming across an accident is to get a good video to upload 

ICBM

My very old-school driving instructor recommended that if you come across an accident, that if possible you stop your own car, and put all its lights on, in a position where it offers some protection to the accident scene. More effective than a warning triangle, although those are a very good idea if you need to protect your own car - I have one, and a high-viz jacket, in all our cars.

Rob1742

Amazes me how prepared some people are. Carrying extra equipment for the small chance of impending disaster.

I recall once the weather forecast being atrocious, snow forecast so with this in mind, just before I set off I searched for my gloves, and I was lucky enough to find one.

On the way back from a 100 mile journey the snow came down on the M1 and my cam belt went.

Not being able to identify the white lines on the motorway for the heavy snow I decided to leave the car and hide behind a post on the M1 until help arrived.

Dressed only in a suit and tie ( I don’t think I owned a coat at the time) I was so pleased I packed that one glove which kept me alive during the four hour wait at the side of the road.

crunchman

boogieman said:

ICBM said:

boogieman said:

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

It's a good idea to carry one of those extendable wheel nut handles - it gives you a lot more leverage. Although I normally just use an old socket bar and jump on the end of it... never failed to get one undone like that yet. (And I'm not very heavy!)

I had to use a six foot length of scaffold pole to shift the wheel nuts on our car (and I am a fat bastard!) I was just trying to replace the brake pads, but then found the caliper bolts were done up equally tight. Eventually I had to give up and get it done by a garage. 

I borrowed an extension bar off a mechanic under our flat years ago to try to undo an stubborn hub nut.  I bent his bar and had to buy him a new one.

Kittyfrisk

crunchman said:

boogieman said:

ICBM said:

boogieman said:

Even if you do have a spare there’s a high probability that you won’t be able to shift the wheel nuts cos some gorilla at the tyre shop has massively overtorqued them with a windy gun. 

It's a good idea to carry one of those extendable wheel nut handles - it gives you a lot more leverage. Although I normally just use an old socket bar and jump on the end of it... never failed to get one undone like that yet. (And I'm not very heavy!)

I had to use a six foot length of scaffold pole to shift the wheel nuts on our car (and I am a fat bastard!) I was just trying to replace the brake pads, but then found the caliper bolts were done up equally tight. Eventually I had to give up and get it done by a garage. 

I borrowed an extension bar off a mechanic under our flat years ago to try to undo an stubborn hub nut.  I bent his bar and had to buy him a new one.

Tales involving extension bars, scaffold poles etc. sounds awfully like the result of a general lack of routine maintenance :-D