Helix? Frfr? Power amps? A decade late to the game, where to start? Or do I walk away?

Teyeplayer

I’ve used the search function, read a few threads and I’m more confused than ever. In short, I’m sat here with a cracking set up, Vox AC30, Orange Tremlord and a host of great pedals (the kind of pedal board it’s taken years to get up to). Earlier I sat in the sun and thought: but you don’t plug it in for more than five minutes, you haven’t gigged since 2019, you are worried about playing past 7pm and upsetting the neighbours/kids. At which point I pretty much decided, bugger it all…helix looks fairly straightforward. Then I thought, but I’ll need an frfr speaker for those occasional jams with mates. A quick search of the usual retailers and I found passive cabs, or active ones at more money than sense. And before I knew it I was thoroughly confused.

So, collective fretboard wisdom of the hive-mind, where would you say I start on a moderate budget, what have you learnt in the last decade of using this gear? What’s good, what’s average and what’s best avoided?

TimmyO

Get a good quality attenuator and use your awesome gear. 

I’ve been around the modelling loop a couple of times. The draw is strong (still) but I discovered that the possibilities end up too distracting (for me) 

Grangousier

I'm a big fan of modellers and whatever they call analogue modellers (SansAmp, Simplifier, etc), but they're definitely solutions to problems that it doesn't seem you have (in fact would be more likely to cause problems) - surely you'd be better off with a Two Notes Torpedo or an Ox Box or something like that. 

pt22

TimmyO said:

Get a good quality attenuator and use your awesome gear. 

I’ve been around the modelling loop a couple of times. The draw is strong (still) but I discovered that the possibilities end up too distracting (for me) 

This or something that does this and has headphone out. Keep everything else. 

Beexter

FWIW, I've been using digital modellers since I bought a POD2 when they came out in 2000. Still my biggest gig to date was a function at the Park Lane Hilton playing the Pod2 through a Roland KC350 keyboard amp (and DI to FOH)!

Currently have an HX Stomp & Fractal FM9. I also have four valve amps and a load of pedals and used to buy and sell pedals all the time, searching for that elusive "tone in my head".
I can't remember the last time I bought a pedal since getting the Fractal (started with an AX8, then FM3 and now FM9) and barely use my valve amps. Personally, I'm a fan of the flexibility and convenience of digital rigs.
I've just joined a new band (only doing covers) and they aim to get in the ballpark of the sounds of the original track. With the Fractal, I just search what amp a particular artist uses, load that amp into a preset and I'm fairly close. Doing the same with the HX Stomp requires a lot more tweaking.

I know you are asking for a low cost of entry and the Fractal probably doesn't qualify. However, you should be able to pick up an FM3 around £800 ISH and I do think it is great value when you consider what it can do/ replace.
In isolation, the HX Stomp is also good.

I'm sure you know this but what you play it through has a big impact on how happy you'll be with the sounds you hear. Just as with guitar cabs, the "speaker" has a massive impact on the tone. Studio monitors are great for home use and stereo sounds lovely but if you want something you can play through with a band, the basic two choices are 1) running into a power amp and then to a regular guitar cab or 2) into an FRFR solution. I've used both over the years (starting with the KC350 keyboard amp) and have gravitated towards FRFR solutions as I find they give me more tonal options with IR's. I've settled on a handful of York Audio IR'S to reduce option paralysis. I typically also only use mono live.

I used a Yamaha DXR10 for a long time but recently picked up a Fender FR-10 which is all I've used since getting it, either at bedroom volume or at band rehearsal. Sounds great in either scenario. Both options cost less than £350. I haven't tried it but many like the Laney equivalent of the Fender.

Apologies for the long reply but hope it helps.

Teyeplayer

Thanks @Beexter thats exactly the kind of information I was after. 

I can reasonably stretch to the Kemper profiler stage floorboard or a full fat helix if I go down this route, but it’s the speaker scenario that is giving me the headache. Knowing something like the new fender cabs which are reasonably priced and aren’t going to break the bank sound good is key. I was looking at quality speaker that were over 1k and thinking this is an utter waste of time on top of a modelling unit.

sweepy

Long time Helix/Fractal/Kemper owner and user, the biggest revelation I had with my FM9 was to use it with a 400w stereo solid state amp and a pair of good quality 2x12 guitar cabs with speaker modelling off 

Beexter

@Teyeplayer - I've never tried a "profiler" like a Kemper, Tonex etc 'cause my understanding is you need to find the right profile with everything set as you want it as they don't react as well to tonal/ gain adjustments.That sounded like a rabbit hole I didn't want to go down and could get expensive as you search for that "Goldilocks" profile. With a modelling approach the circuits are modelled so should respond more like their real world counterparts and I can dial things in just as I would with "real" gear.

I did a rehearsal today using my HX Stomp instead of the FM9, having replicated a handful of basic presets using the same amp/ effects ( as an example JCM800, SD-1, Vintage Digital delay, Dimension Chorus and the same York IR in both units)
Within less than 5 minutes, the other guitarist commented that it wasn't sounding as good as the FM9 and it simply wasn't. I'm sure I can get it closer with tweaking but it's not as instantly gratifying.

There is some reports of the Fender FR cabs hissing but in all honesty, mine is not bad at all and hasn't had the "stealth" Fender hardware "update" - check out the 100 page
"Hissterectomy" thread over on the Fractal forum for the full story...It does also highlight how well it compares to a range of other (often more expensive) FRFR solutions.

fretmeister

At home I use my Helix rack with a pair of Yamaha HS7 powered monitors and I think they are excellent.

I don't use the Helix live these days as I'm not currently in a band and my last one was playing bass in a big band jazz band. Bass / Flatwounds / Amp was all I needed.

I have used the Yamaha DXR10 powered PA speaker and I thought it was pretty good but I think if I gigged it again I'd probably go down the route of a power amp and a trad speaker cab unless the band was an 'everything in the PA + IEM for monitoring' band.

Wazmeister

I echo @Beexter...

HX Stomp

or 

FM3/9

Bidley

If you're set on going modelling, consider the Headrush 108. Or the Laney LFR112 I'm selling

rze99

I bought a used one of these Yamaha THR100 HDs when not using my big heavy amps which is 99% of the time. It's brilliant.

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/guitars/yamaha-thr100hd-628051

Teyeplayer

Thanks for the contributions folks. It’s made for slowing down my impulsive nature. Consensus seems to be Helix has had its day, go Fractal, which immediately moves out of practicality zone (based on my current pedal board I’d need at least the fm9 and potentially the extension pedal just to be close to current capabilities). I’m lucky, I have a fantastic sounding set up and on reflection part of that is feeling it move air…the more I read up on frfr the more I am convinced as good as a sound might be it is this that I would miss. So if nothing else, thanks for the rational reasoning (and those of you that messaged with offers to loan gear to test it -flipping love this community). 

monquixote

If you have something good stick with it. 

Modelling is great, and I have a GT-1000 going into studio monitors, but I use a DSL40 for home 90% of the time.

If you do go the modelling route I think FRFR is disappointing it's like a random extra bit of PA not attached to the mixer. Either go silent stage with in ear monitors and let the PA do the guitar, or play your modeller through a guitar cab (which feels and sounds much more "real") and then take a feed with an IR through the PA.

Bidley

Teyeplayer said:

Consensus seems to be Helix has had its day

Nah. Lots of people are still happy with theirs.

digitalscream

@Teyeplayer - based purely on my experience at lunchtime, when my ToneX One arrived...that's what you should get. It's a pedal, it's simple as anything and - if you can stand using the software to get it set up - it's probably the single easiest way in. Just plonk it on your board where you'd normally have your amp, and you're good to go.

You can disable the cab profile and run into your amp, or you can use headphones, or you can use monitors, or FRFR...all for the price of a distortion pedal. It's insane how good this thing really is. It basically turns your normal rig into a modelling rig, while taking up less room on your board than the channel switch for your amp.

It doesn't do any of the really clever stuff the Helix can do with routing, but...do you actually need that? Don't get me wrong, the Helix is still a phenomenal piece of gear and (in my opinion) sounds just as good as all of the competition. However, you do need a very clear picture in your head of what you want to achieve with it; if you think you might get option paralysis, it could cause more problems than it solves.

TheBigDipper

I'm a few weeks into owning a full fat Tonex to go direct with my pedalboard and wish I'd looked at profiling/capture solutions rather than modelling a lot earlier than I actually did. It's the closest I've found to the experience of playing an amp when your amp technology is digital rather than analogue. 

Yes, you need to take a tone capture (or three) that you like and run with it, but it's been pretty easy to find something I like and then say "enough for now" and just work with it rather than continue to search for something better. I'm using the stock JCM800 capture - one for a clean tone and one for a crunch tone. It cleans up when I turn down and responds properly to being hit with a clean boost. 

The tone controls don't work like they do on a real amp. It's more like the EQ on a channel strip. But the input gain seems to. 

I plug straight into the desk for gigs, but use a Laney FR112 at home. Currently doing some band recording and it sounds good to me. 

You can't edit a preset on your pedal using the computer app. Instead, you have to retrieve it from the pedal back into the Tonex app and do it there, before replacing it. In practice, not yet been a problem for me as the important parameters can be edited directly on the pedal using the knobs. That's not the same for the Tonex One, of course, not enough knobs… :-) 

NickB

Why not keep your rig and buy a Captor X? If convenience is important then a HX stomp and a couple of drive pedals are perfect. As per my rig which makes me a very happy bunny. 

Teyeplayer

NickB said:

Why not keep your rig and buy a Captor X? If convenience is important then a HX stomp and a couple of drive pedals are perfect. As per my rig which makes me a very happy bunny. 

Or the simplifier that we’d chatted about.

I think this is potentially all coming down to needing a quality sounding headphone option as a starting point and maintaining everything else as is for the time being. Small steps and all that.

NickB

Yeah the Simplifier is a great option. I love mine and hardly used my real amps. In fact I haven't gigged a valve amp since I bought it....