When two pickups are combined - the sound of the lower DCR pickup will predominate...

jaymenon

I remember @ICBM ; saying this sometime ago.

I guess that's why a Les Paul in the middle position sounds far closer to the neck pickup on its own, and you have to adjust pickup heights to get a sound that is representative of both pickups together.

So if it's fundamentally the DCR, then I wonder about:
- using a pair of identical DCR pickups 
- putting a higher power magnet in the bridge pickup (eg. AlNiCO 5)
- less powerful magnet in the neck pickup (eg. AlNiCo2 or 4)

Would that work better than a DCR-calibrated pair?

maharg101

With a Les Paul arrangement (independent volume and tone controls) it depends on how those controls are set. I always love the interaction between the neck and bridge, typically with the bridge on full volume, and the neck backed off a bit. Lots of tones to be had there.

nacnudnai

jaymenon said:

I remember @ICBM ; saying this sometime ago.

I guess that's why a Les Paul in the middle position sounds far closer to the neck pickup on its own, and you have to adjust pickup heights to get a sound that is representative of both pickups together.

So if it's fundamentally the DCR, then I wonder about:
- using a pair of identical DCR pickups 
- putting a higher power magnet in the bridge pickup (eg. AlNiCO 5)
- less powerful magnet in the neck pickup (eg. AlNiCo2 or 4)

Would that work better than a DCR-calibrated pair?

Bit of a rabbit hole this one haha. 

I would largely say that my experience has also been that the lower DCR pickup will be the predominate sound in the middle position - which logically means that for a "balanced" set with a lower DCR neck (maybe about 1k DCR less), the neck will dominate. Conversely, my Don Felder R9 came with a BB2 in the neck and a BB1 in the bridge, and I noticed that the middle position was quite bright and "clucky".

Which leads to my other experience - some of the more unique middle position sounds I have found have been from closely matched sets (where the DCR maybe differs by 0.1-0.5k). My presumption is that pickups with a similar number of turns by the same winder will have similar resistance and distributed capacitance, meaning that the resulting cancellation due to the difference in physical position along the string is "stronger" due to the phase shift (I don't mean "out of phase") of both pickups electrically being similar. That may be wrong and/or poorly explained and/or there may be way more to it than that.

In my experience, I have not really noticed using different magnet types to make much difference in this. This isn't to say the magnets do not have an effect, but I haven't noticed what that effect is. I imagine the resistance and capacitance is the primary driver in this, and the magnetic field maybe not so important.

In terms of your alternative to a DCR-calibrated pair, try it! Do some mag swaps!

ICBM

nacnudnai said:

I would largely say that my experience has also been that the lower DCR pickup will be the predominate sound in the middle position - which logically means that for a "balanced" set with a lower DCR neck (maybe about 1k DCR less), the neck will dominate. Conversely, my Don Felder R9 came with a BB2 in the neck and a BB1 in the bridge, and I noticed that the middle position was quite bright and "clucky".

Which leads to my other experience - some of the more unique middle position sounds I have found have been from closely matched sets (where the DCR maybe differs by 0.1-0.5k). My presumption is that pickups with a similar number of turns by the same winder will have similar resistance and distributed capacitance, meaning that the resulting cancellation due to the difference in physical position along the string is "stronger" due to the phase shift (I don't mean "out of phase") of both pickups electrically being similar. That may be wrong and/or poorly explained and/or there may be way more to it than that.

In my experience, I have not really noticed using different magnet types to make much difference in this. This isn't to say the magnets do not have an effect, but I haven't noticed what that effect is. I imagine the resistance and capacitance is the primary driver in this, and the magnetic field maybe not so important.

I agree completely with this - yes, the lower-impedance (strictly it is this and not the DC resistance that matters, although they are very closely related) pickup always dominates the mix even if the higher-impedance one is "higher output" - this is because the lower impedance pickup loads the higher pickup more than the other way round.

Also, the most interesting combined sound, more different from either pickup alone, is when they're very closely matched for impedance, because neither pickup dominates and hence the harmonic addition and cancellation between the two signals is maximised. This is why the most extreme Strat 'quack' in the 2 and 4 positions is when the pickups are identical.

The magnet makes very little difference other than by altering the inductance of the coil slightly if the mass of ferrous material is different - impedance is a function of resistance, capacitance and inductance, and for a pickup coil resistance and inductance are the important ones.

jaymenon

Thanks @ICBM ;

I was merely wondering whether using a more powerful magnet in the bridge pickup would compensate for the bridge pickup being quieter than the neck pickup, while simultaneously affording equal impedance in both pickups...?

Dave_Mc

The problem with using a different magnet is that you might not like how it sounds when you're using either pickup alone! The weaker magnets are usually warmer-sounding, and that's not really what I want for the neck pickup usually- I prefer the same magnet in all of the pickups in a guitar usually.

And yeah I think the best in-between tones come from relatively closely matched pickups, too. It's a balancing act, though, because if they're too close it can be hard to get them to balance volume-wise.

nacnudnai

jaymenon said:

Thanks @ICBM ;

I was merely wondering whether using a more powerful magnet in the bridge pickup would compensate for the bridge pickup being quieter than the neck pickup, while simultaneously affording equal impedance in both pickups...?

In theory, I see nothing wrong with that. One way of accomplishing it could be to use the same magnet type, but degauss the neck pickup. Given the magnet is not the primary factor here, degaussing that magnet probably won't affect the middle position sound all that much. That might be preferable because...

Dave_Mc said:

The problem with using a different magnet is that you might not like how it sounds when you're using either pickup alone! The weaker magnets are usually warmer-sounding, and that's not really what I want for the neck pickup usually- I prefer the same magnet in all of the pickups in a guitar usually.

And yeah I think the best in-between tones come from relatively closely matched pickups, too. It's a balancing act, though, because if they're too close it can be hard to get them to balance volume-wise.

This lol. I have no issue using mixed mag sets, but some mixes just don't work to me. Personally, I find A2 and A4 to be a bad mix! Same with Alnico 8 and most other magnets. In the context of "PAF" Land, I find the spectrum to have A2 on one side and A4 on the other - to my ears. All other alnicos fall in between.

Dave_Mc

nacnudnai said:

jaymenon said:

Thanks @ICBM ;;

I was merely wondering whether using a more powerful magnet in the bridge pickup would compensate for the bridge pickup being quieter than the neck pickup, while simultaneously affording equal impedance in both pickups...?

In theory, I see nothing wrong with that. One way of accomplishing it could be to use the same magnet type, but degauss the neck pickup. Given the magnet is not the primary factor here, degaussing that magnet probably won't affect the middle position sound all that much. That might be preferable because...

Dave_Mc said:

The problem with using a different magnet is that you might not like how it sounds when you're using either pickup alone! The weaker magnets are usually warmer-sounding, and that's not really what I want for the neck pickup usually- I prefer the same magnet in all of the pickups in a guitar usually.

And yeah I think the best in-between tones come from relatively closely matched pickups, too. It's a balancing act, though, because if they're too close it can be hard to get them to balance volume-wise.

This lol. I have no issue using mixed mag sets, but some mixes just don't work to me. Personally, I find A2 and A4 to be a bad mix! Same with Alnico 8 and most other magnets. In the context of "PAF" Land, I find the spectrum to have A2 on one side and A4 on the other - to my ears. All other alnicos fall in between.

Yeah I probably should have clarified that the one mix I've tried which does work reasonably well (assuming they do the tone you want!) is a hotter ceramic in the bridge with a lower output alnico 5 in the neck. But in most cases if you put a warmer bridge magnet with a brighter neck magnet, the pickups sound too close in tone, and if you do it the other way round they sound too different so it's hard to dial in a sound which sounds good for both.

I'd also be worried that degaussing the magnets like you suggested might just make it sound similar to the different alnico grade! I haven't tried it myself but I'm sure I've read people who know what they're talking about saying that if you degauss alnico 5, say, to the strength of alnico 2, that that basically just makes it sound like alnico 2. I could be wrong but I think it's basically just the strength of the magnet which affects the tone.