Grandmeister transformers - EU/UK

gearaddict

I didn't get one in the end but I was thinking about one of these amps and when I was looking into it I discovered that they come with either EU rated transformers (210v) or UK rated ones (240v). Apparently extended use of the 210v version in the UK can cause problems with the amp which would not be covered under warranty.

It could be an issue when buying from retailers that source their stock from Germany - which includes DV247 and obviously Thomann. I asked DV247 about this and they seemed completely clueless, just saying that they would send a UK kettle lead and that everything was covered under their 3 year warranty.

I wonder why this applies to the Grandmeister particularly. As far as I know, other H&K amps aren't sensitive to voltage in this way.

Fortheloveofguitar

Most of these stores like DV247 and Guitar Guitar don't have a clue about any of the items they sell.

All box shifters.

stevenew

I enquired with H&K about this when I was thinking of buying a Tubemeister 36, they replied that all the Tubemeisters sold in this country sourced from the UK distributer have 240volt rated transformers, sourced from Europe the transformers are rated 210volts. So I think it applies to all the Tubemeister range.

Kebabkid

@gearaddict ; - there was a thread on this back when we were on MR.
I bought the 240v one from the UK but @ragingben got a lower voltage one and had the same concerns.
Ben - do you remember what you were told? I believe it was ok.

hywelg

We are all supposed to be standardising on 230v are we not?

Jeremiah

AFAIK, we have "standardised" on 230v +/- up to 20v either way or something like that. So both the old Euro and UK standards fall within the new standard, and nothing has actually changed about the power supplies.

ragingben

I had the same concerns. It's a long story but I bought a TM36 from thomann when they first came out. A few months past and H&K updated their website saying about the voltage difference. I was pretty concerned so emailed them. They were very unhelpful and just told me to email the UK distributor. Did that, and they said there is nothing to worry about, but that I should contact thomann anyway. You could tell they were really thinking haha should have bought a uk one though, which is fair enough. I emailed thomann and they said there is no difference other than a label and they suspect it is to stop people buying cheaper from outside the UK. Anyway, the back board on the TM36 went wrong, thomann repaired it and after I chased them up they said it was nothing to do with using at 240v, and the guts are the same. I've used it a fair bit since, probably 20 months or so and it's been great. But I don't get the whole 230/240v thing... Is it to protect uk distributors or is there really a difference and their amps are built so close to tolerance that it is bordering on irresponsible? I haven't been that impressed with Hughes and kettner as a company in general though, and get the impression that if you have a problem outside of warranty they are gonna abandon you, and the guts of the grandmesiter look pretty hard to get a tech to fix. I don't mind the tubemeister but I've never fully bonded with it as an amp, mainly due to a really odd eq. The crunch channel is great though and I get on pretty well with the cleans, definitely advise it being a try before you buy amp if possible.

ragingben

Oh, and it's 230v. I think some mark bass amps come in 230 and 240 varieties too

jpfamps

The standardized EU mains is 230 +/- 10% ie 207 - 253 VAC

Changing the mains voltages in member countries would have been very expensive, so the new EU standard was made wide enough to cover the standards it replaced.

Thus the old UK standard of 240 VAC +6% -10% ie 216 - 254 VAC is (virtually) within the new standard.

UK mains is still 240 VAC.

Units for sale in the EU and marked for 230V operation should be tested at 253 VAC; however this doesn't mean that the unit will be reliable when run at this voltage. The unit needs to pass tests for external temperature, ie it won't burn down your house if left on for a length of time at the maximum allowable mains voltage.

210 VAC is a strange choice of voltage.

Designing for 240 VAC is the safest option, then on your EU tour the amp will run a bit cooler ie on the safe side.

ragingben

The European Grandmesiter and Tubemeister range are 230v, not 210v.

jpfamps

ragingben said:

The European Grandmesiter and Tubemeister range are 230v, not 210v.

That would make sense.

gearaddict

ragingben said:

The European Grandmesiter and Tubemeister range are 230v, not 210v.

Odd - I got the 210v figure from JHS, the H&K UK distributor.

ragingben

gearaddict;401196" said:

ragingben said:

The European Grandmesiter and Tubemeister range are 230v, not 210v.





Odd - I got the 210v figure from JHS, the H&K UK distributor.

Strange... In the manual page 11 under the fuse section it has fuse specs for 4 versions: 100/120/220-230/240v. Hmm a bit weird... Just call it 230v and be done. Financially I can't see it making much sense having different 220-230v and 240v versions, just have a 220-240v version you can sell all over.

ragingben

Perhaps JHS told you a lower EU voltage so you would buy from the UK, looking after the guys buying stock from them?

gearaddict

So I got my replacement Switchblade tonight and I noticed that there is a little removable fuse holder thing just below the kettle lead socket. It has "220-230" written on one side and "240" on the other. Looking in the manual, I see you are supposed to pull this out and flip it over, depending on which voltage you are running at. I wonder what this actually does?

Mine turned up in the "220-230" orientation and I played it for about 10 or 20 minutes before I noticed. I have flipped it over now and all seems well but I hope I haven't done anything bad to the amp...think I have?

gearaddict

Just to round this off - I checked with H&K and apparently the Switchblade transformers are rated at 240 anyway...

ragingben

Interesting... Can any of the guys in the know comment on this? Is a transformer rated 240v adequate for normal 240v operation (as daft as that sounds) or should it be rated higher for the UK?

Gassage

I have an Olson power strip in my rig. It shows the Voltage at any one moment. During high loads times it's about 238v, but at times spikes to 247. I'm not sure what this means but it's certainly quite a variance

jpfamps

Most electronic devices for sale in the EU are 230 VAC operation, which means they need to be tested at 253 VAC, which is also the legal upper limit of UK mains.

If the unit is rated for 240 VAC is should be tested at 264 VAC (rated voltage + 10%).

As I stated above, this of course does not mean the unit will run reliably at 253 or 264 VAC, just that it's external temperature doesn't exceed a certain limit, ie you won't injure yourself handling it, nor will it burn your house down.

Of course all devices will be less reliable when run at a higher voltage, but hopefully the manufacturer is aware of this and the reliability is not severely compromised by mains variations.

gearaddict

Just thought I'd share the below from JHS. I tried to get some info directly from H&K in Germany but they pass all UK queries straight onto JHS.

"...This is what Rudiger Forse, Music and Sales Senior Product Manager has to say about the Voltage issue:

Hughes & Kettner builds 240 Volts units for the UK market that use a different transformer. From our experience, on 220-230 Volts models of tube amps used in the UK and Eire occured way more failures than in other Europan countries, so we started using extra transfomers ten years ago. Officially, the voltage in the UK should vary within the tolerance, but it doesn't. Like you can read in Sound On Sound magazine:

"In the UK, the official 'declared' voltage is in practice 240V (although it's officially described by the EU as 230V with a different 'tolerance'). In the real world, the mains voltage at your studio's intake varies anyway with loading. In ideal circumstances — a 100-percent healthy mains source — it will centre on 240V and vary from say 235V to 246V throughout the day, as other users switch on and off. Most users are unaware of the mains' continuous and ceaseless fluctuation. Whenever the supply's loading in your immediate block, village, street, or the greater area is low (particularly late at night), the voltage will tend to rise above 240V. The maximum legally allowable is 254V, but voltages as high as 275V have been recorded."

We took the note off the website as it caused confusion in other European countries.  JHS is the official distributor the UK and is supplied by us with 240 volts models only, and we highly recommend to buy from the local distributor..."

Out of interest, I had a look at the official distributor list on the JHS website and the nearest store to me is Hickies in Reading. A quick look at the Hickies website didn't show any H&K products. Hmm...

siremoon

Hmm.  I'm not at all sure I believe that.  My experience of dealing with JHS is that they don't seem to know what they are talking about (I too have found that they don't seem to know which dealers they are supplying). 

Unless someone can come up with concrete evidence that the UK units are different then I remain sceptical.  Thomann certainly think they are the same.  My theory is that H&K found late in the day that the reliability was suffering when operating at the higher end of the supply voltage tolerance and slapped this condition on to limit their exposure.  Iirc this condition appeared after the first tubemeisters were shipped which suggests to me some retrospective realisation of a problem.  I also suspect that the Grandmeister used the same design and it was too late to change it by the time the problem became apparent. 

It makes no sense to me that they should supply UK only units given their likely sales volumes here.  Surely once a problem was found you would fit a replacement part that provided the necessary performance and reliability across the supply voltage range in Europe/UK not split your production into UK/rest of Europe?

Totally happy to hold my hand up and accept I am wrong upon seeing proof but a statement from a distributor with a vested interest and a track record of not being very sure what is going on doesn't cut it for me.