Modelling live...

Drew_TNBD

Gotta be honest... I saw Tesseract and Animals as Leaders tonight. Everything sounded fucking immense... except the guitars. They sounded small, distant, and lacking punch. I'm pretty convinced right now that the wave is going to break one day, and people are going to realize how superior 4x12's and real valve amps are.

Sorry, just the way I feel after tonight.

Clarky

what cabs were they using?

guitarfishbay

I think they both run direct? So PA speakers and no cabs? I'll be totally honest - for the genre I can only think of two tones I really like recorded: Periphery 2 and Destroy Ersase Improve. I don't count Sikth as the same as they're more out there and have a totally different tone - though I've seen them live and they sounded good (6505 rigs IIRC?).

Periphery are back to running cabs on stage because they said front row sound sucked for people too close to get the full experience from the PA which is usually either side of the stage. The cabs fill out the sound for people up close and centre.

It honestly all depends on context and practicality. I wonder if an act like AAL would be able to tour internationally (financially) if it wasn't for digital rigs.

Cirrus

I like that Deftones go direct with axe FX now except that Stephen uses two .44 magnum amps to run two 4x12s for his own sake. Meanwhile, Metalicurgh and U2 have both made the switch to axes too. No idea what they do for on stage sound.

Drew_TNBD

Yeah they both went direct to the PA. During the bits where one guitar will do a little solo rhythm section, in the drops and what not, the guitars sounded tiny. Might as well have been using a Pod 2.0 imho!

I really like Tesseract's tones on the albums, so it isn't a straight up anti-digital thing. It just didn't sound like a huge stack moving air with a microphone in front of it.

Fuzzdog

I've seen a few bands live now who have been using modelling stuff direct to the desk - some sounded awful, some sounded huge.  I think it's more down to the entity running the PA, and we all know how wonderfully 'quirky' they can be.

Fiftyshadesofjay

Interesting, I would have liked to hear that for myself. I think part of it can definitely be a sound engineer issue, I think it also depends on the venue and application.

I think both those bands use Axe Fx, mind you I saw Metallica at Sonisphere and they sounded massive direct, no real different to when they were using amps. Could be a smaller venue thing? Obviously when you're doing big stages nobody has a chance hearing any of your cab anyway so going direct vs cab shouldn't make any difference.

Personally I'm toying with going direct again as the Kemper just sounds great, but I'd use a small power amp into a cab just for feel like Deftones do, I wouldn't mic it. 

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

Yeah they both went direct to the PA. During the bits where one guitar will do a little solo rhythm section, in the drops and what not, the guitars sounded tiny. Might as well have been using a Pod 2.0 imho!

I really like Tesseract's tones on the albums, so it isn't a straight up anti-digital thing. It just didn't sound like a huge stack moving air with a microphone in front of it.

I think it is the missing stack, rather than the FOH feed. Especially in what I presume was a venue you'd hear plenty of real amp in the crowd if one was there. This seems to be why Periphery have cabs on stage again according to the recent rig rundown (but not mic'd, direct feed is still Axe).

EricTheWeary

guitarfishbay said:

I think they both run direct? So PA speakers and no cabs? I'll be totally honest - for the genre I can only think of two tones I really like recorded: Periphery 2 and Destroy Ersase Improve. I don't count Sikth as the same as they're more out there and have a totally different tone - though I've seen them live and they sounded good (6505 rigs IIRC?).

Periphery are back to running cabs on stage because they said front row sound sucked for people too close to get the full experience from the PA which is usually either side of the stage. The cabs fill out the sound for people up close and centre.

It honestly all depends on context and practicality. I wonder if an act like AAL would be able to tour internationally (financially) if it wasn't for digital rigs.

Dweezil Zappa said part of the reason for going direct and not having amps on stage was that the front rows get washed with the sound from the amps. Maybe he has better PA than Periphery!

Danny1969

Mic'ed up amp or Axe your hearing digital sims anyway at any gig running a digital desk, which nowadays is pretty much all of em. The EQ is a sim of a Pultec or similar, the compressor a sim of a Fairchild or whatever, the engineer can put a 4 x 12 cab sim on it even if your using one anyway. With todays stuff like  Waves Sound Multirack or Avids Venue consoles the whole gig is running on Plugins anyway. 

Personally I always think of the Axe being a problem solver for small gig's and budgets. I don't really understand why U2 or Metallica need em

Drew_TNBD

Danny1969 said:

Mic'ed up amp or Axe your hearing digital sims anyway at any gig running a digital desk, which nowadays is pretty much all of em. The EQ is a sim of a Pultec or similar, the compressor a sim of a Fairchild or whatever, the engineer can put a 4 x 12 cab sim on it even if your using one anyway. With todays stuff like  Waves Sound Multirack or Avids Venue consoles the whole gig is running on Plugins anyway. 

Personally I always think of the Axe being a problem solver for small gig's and budgets. I don't really understand why U2 or Metallica need em

This isn't an anti digital thread, none of that stuff you brought up is really relevant. A mic'd up amp going through a digital desk still sounds different than the Axe FX going through the same desk imho.

BTW, this was at the Scala. Not a small venue by any stretch. I've seen other bands there before like Mono and Boris for instance, and they sounded fantastic.

I dunno... it was odd. I was expecting huge guitars, and what I got was nothing you couldn't have done with a 1st gen modeller from the 90's. I honestly believe that. The drums and vocals were by far the best sounding elements.

Also AAL were crap, but that's a music thing...

Cirrus

Thing is, I've seen the whole range of guitars in mixes from awe inspiring to totally shit even with analogue valve amps, stacks etc. It's totally about how good the sound guy is and what the physical limitations of the room are.

Drew_TNBD

Cirrus said:

Thing is, I've seen the whole range of guitars in mixes from awe inspiring to totally shit even with analogue valve amps, stacks etc. It's totally about how good the sound guy is and what the physical limitations of the room are.

I don't think it's totally down to the sound guy, but obviously he's a very very large part of it. But you can't polish a turd, as the saying goes... shit in... shit out.

fretmeister

Drew_fx said:

Cirrus said:

Thing is, I've seen the whole range of guitars in mixes from awe inspiring to totally shit even with analogue valve amps, stacks etc. It's totally about how good the sound guy is and what the physical limitations of the room are.

I don't think it's totally down to the sound guy, but obviously he's a very very large part of it. But you can't polish a turd, as the saying goes... shit in... shit out.

You can't polish it. But you can roll it in glitter.

Danny1969

Drew_fx said:

Danny1969 said:

Mic'ed up amp or Axe your hearing digital sims anyway at any gig running a digital desk, which nowadays is pretty much all of em. The EQ is a sim of a Pultec or similar, the compressor a sim of a Fairchild or whatever, the engineer can put a 4 x 12 cab sim on it even if your using one anyway. With todays stuff like  Waves Sound Multirack or Avids Venue consoles the whole gig is running on Plugins anyway. 

Personally I always think of the Axe being a problem solver for small gig's and budgets. I don't really understand why U2 or Metallica need em

This isn't an anti digital thread, none of that stuff you brought up is really relevant. A mic'd up amp going through a digital desk still sounds different than the Axe FX going through the same desk imho.

BTW, this was at the Scala. Not a small venue by any stretch. I've seen other bands there before like Mono and Boris for instance, and they sounded fantastic.

I dunno... it was odd. I was expecting huge guitars, and what I got was nothing you couldn't have done with a 1st gen modeller from the 90's. I honestly believe that. The drums and vocals were by far the best sounding elements.

Also AAL were crap, but that's a music thing...

Ah no I wasn't reffering to it being digital, more the fact you could be hearing the Axe fx or the mic'ed up amp going through Digidesigns 11 or a bunch of Waves guitar amps. There's so much post processing in a modern desk now anythings possible. I use Amplitube for some stuff when mixing live 

Clarky

I still prefer my Axe through a real poweramp and 4x12 cabs..

smoe guys have hinted to me that this is a bit old fashioned etc... but I know what I like and that's all I care about..

guitarfishbay

Clarky said:

I still prefer my Axe through a real poweramp and 4x12 cabs..

smoe guys have hinted to me that this is a bit old fashioned etc... but I know what I like and that's all I care about..

A mate of mine does live sound, not much rock/metal anymore as he's the live engineer for a fairly big electro act, but he also prefers a cab on stage when he does guitar bands. His opinion is a lot of guys overprocess their DI tones and/or feed something thin/unbalanced to the desk that doesn't really work in context, whereas if there is a decent sound coming through a cab that fits with the band sound he can bang a 57 on it and work with it. I've been to rock/blues gigs (club and small festival) he's engineered and they've sounded great. No idea if the tones fed to FOH at the gig Drew was at were good in the first place or not, but interesting as you usually 'hear' that engineers prefer DI. But I guess his point is more about engineering bands he's not very familiar with - if they get a good on stage sound first of course it makes his job easier.

Cirrus

I think your mate has the right idea in as much as it's much easier to get the band sounding good if they actually sound like a well balanced ensemble of musicians before you bring up the first fader (apart from vocals of course). If the sound of the band is an actual event happening there in the room then you're off to a good start. As various elements move away from that (guitars being modeled and DI'd, kick drum triggered, samples/ backing tracks carrying more important parts of the song) it just makes the whole thing a bit more fragile - there's more stuff to go wrong partially from a technical standpoint but more often for a perspective/ vision side of things among the musicians, stage crew and sound guy.

The biggest annoyance we have using the occasional sample/ backing track is that the sound guy, having not heard the song before, makes a guess as to how prominent said backing would be. Sometimes it's almost inaudible, sometimes it dominates the mix. If the keyboard on the backing track was played by a real keyboardist going into a backline amp the sound guy would have a cue based on the band's internal dynamics as to how prominent that part would be. As it is all they have is a fader and their best guess.

randomhandclaps

When I first saw the title I thought was going to be a thread envying @chillidoggy's work.

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/1/1370080192900/agi_and_sam_181.jpeg

Danny1969

There's a lot to be said for having your own sound engineer with your band someone who knows the songs inside out and knows exactly how things should sound.

My place was booked out The whole of last weekend by a chart artist about to go on tour. The whole purpose of it was to build a show file for Their front of house PA sound and IEM mixes

fretmeister

From what I could work out at the Devin Townsend show I saw a couple of months ago - he was using Ax FX into the power section of Mesa Dual recs.

Maybe it was easier to get the Dual Rec heads as a rental rather than their power amps which seem to be much rarer over here.

Sounded awesome. Thick, chunky and very articulate.