Diminished Scales ? (Head Hurts) !

Barney

frankus said:

As someone who plays Jazz that has a fair few interesting chords often used in the same bar - I am a bit indifferent to modes - they cannot be extemporised quick enough to be of use in anything but modal jazz. What's going to sound okay over a bar (if I've never seen it before) is the chord tones of the two chords - if there are duplicates then that means I've a degree of liberty to explore the missing information.

G7 -> A7 => G B D F -> A C# E G  all told ( G A B C# D E F ) - I knew 2 dominants a tone apart = melodic minor mode but rather than think of that utterly redundant name (why learn hundreds?) - I think of the contents .. just playing the notes of the second dominant chord over the first gives a nice sound .. that'll become more familiar over the second chord -- repetition, resolution -- woo scary it'd sound.. planned, anticipated.

I think there is far more worth to be found in small tactics than there is boiling the ocean to find strategies - you'll find billions of strategies and names for them and by the time you've finished filing them you'll have arthritis and be deaf

There are only ever 12 notes, there are only really 3 types of chord: major minor and dominant - it's far far easier to learn the sounds of those 12 notes over those 3 types of chord - 36 combinations - than it is to learn exactly the same thing in bunches of eight (7,6 or 5) notes remembering it's thing (mode) of another thing (scale).

When you're playing over an unfamiliar piece of music sounds are your friends - not names. With a name you pick it... then scratch around trying to locate the root note then you can start playing the patter for that name... in jazz that's too late the music has moved so the tactics for finding a note have to be more immediate. I feel they're more honset and the results are more musical.

 

 

so very true......we can sometimes look to deeply into things like theory and not the actual sounds or even chord tones..i think modes have there use but are far from the be all and end all....in fact i would put them really low down the list...

viz

Modes are just tags, names to give to certain scalar selections. Music comes first, them modes are useful for naming the notes used. Like any other name. Saucepan for example. The primary thing is to boil some potatoes. The secondary thing is to name the metal container a saucepan. I myself happen to feel pretty comfortable playing along to many styles. Naming the modes was a missing jigsaw piece for me, so I've recently become excited by them. But I agree with frankus that you shouldn't use them to try and become musical. That would be like trying to learn a language from a book.

Bellycaster

@frankus

Good summary of what really matters there and I'm impressed how you can play off the bat like that. I'm guessing my weakness is being stuck in the Pattern regime rather than the notes jumping into my head like you seem to manage.

When you mentioned to the two Dom7 (A7 & G7) chords and ammased the notes of the two chords ( G A B C# D E F ) = Melodic Minor Mode, I was wondering why I didn't come up with G Melodic Minor from those notes, you actually might not have meant that, sorry if I got mixed up with that. 

I was also a bit puzzled by what you meant by only 3 types of chords though (Maj, Min, Dom) ? I'm wondering why you omitted the Dim and Dim7 and Aug etc?

I did read through twice but was still a bit confused.

@viz and frankus

I found this guy and he teaches you the 1-3-4   1-2-4  1-3-4  1-2-4  1-3-4  1-2-4 Pattern. He also shows how to incorporate in into the Min Pent to get those "Outside" notes

He does a nifty demo at 11:14 and it's harder than it looks if you stuck in the Min Pent or Maj Scale trench like me. I did come up with some laughable bits, obviously I'm gonna have to find little phrases that have the right amount of tension and resolve.

Not questioning your collective knowledge here it's just hard when someones a few pages ahead, if you get me?

Cheers guys

 

 

 

 

frankus

I think any one pattern can have millions of uses, so finding one that works for you and using it in all ways is a pretty sensible thing to do. Any pentatonic pattern can be played over any chord and the results are worth remembering

Bellycaster said:

When you mentioned to the two Dom7 (A7 & G7) chords and ammased the notes of the two chords ( G A B C# D E F ) = Melodic Minor Mode, I was wondering why I didn't come up with G Melodic Minor from those notes, you actually might not have meant that, sorry if I got mixed up with that.

It's a mode of the melodic minor, I didn't want to bore anyone or otherwise put anyone off by going into any more detail. If it's your thing, it's G lydian dominant... or A mixolydian b6 depending on which chord you're playing over (which kinda shows how much you should really care about it ;^)

Bellycaster said:

I was also a bit puzzled by what you meant by only 3 types of chords though (Maj, Min, Dom) ? I'm wondering why you omitted the Dim and Dim7 and Aug etc?

There are three types of chord, according to Joe Pass, I could explain it to you, but that'd be spoon feeding - which isn't really going to help you grok the concept, you'd need to go out and find it on the internet and give it a try before it'd even begin to make sense... if I explained it, it might turn into a intellectual debate and it's far more interesting a concept than that medium would do justice to

Jalapeno

re:3 Chords - think basic triads, and Aug, Dim etc fit into the Maj/Min/Dom trio

viz

@bellycaster that vid was nice, thanks

Jalapeno

Bellycaster said:

He does a nifty demo at 11:14 and it's harder than it looks if you stuck in the Min Pent or Maj Scale trench like me.

That is very cool ! B-)

midiglitch

A couple more themes you could explore:

1. Targeting chord tones.

2. Take the appropriate scale and drop some notes so you restrict yourself to fewer notes, not more! Eg you could go aeolian and drop the 3rd and 7th, leaving you 1,2,4,5,b6. All the notes of the scale will still "fit" but the inherent scale sound will be different.

Idk if this will get you where you want to be, but hopefully you'll enjoy the journey!

Bellycaster

@frankus

Thanks for clearing those things up.

I'm hoping, in the long run, to adopt the same methods as yourself. It's just that on the learning curve, I think it makes me feel more assured and comfortable to be able to "name" something.

I'll keep plodding on

Bellycaster

Cheers @viz and @Jalapeno

 

Bellycaster

midiglitch said:

A couple more themes you could explore:

1. Targeting chord tones.

2. Take the appropriate scale and drop some notes so you restrict yourself to fewer notes, not more! Eg you could go aeolian and drop the 3rd and 7th, leaving you 1,2,4,5,b6. All the notes of the scale will still "fit" but the inherent scale sound will be different.

Idk if this will get you where you want to be, but hopefully you'll enjoy the journey!

@midiglitch

Thanks, I think the journey may prove to be a long one

viz

@midiglitch wow that's true, never really thought of that.

midiglitch

Yeah it's like sticking it to the man without breaking the rules

frankus

Bellycaster said:

@frankus

Thanks for clearing those things up.

I'm hoping, in the long run, to adopt the same methods as yourself. It's just that on the learning curve, I think it makes me feel more assured and comfortable to be able to "name" something.

I'll keep plodding on

Be careful with the naming thing... I spent two years doing a reinforced block a particular way in Karate then one day I get told ... it's not a block (which I should know already - nothing is) and it's not reinforcing... strange thing is I never thought a "spear hand strike" was for punching people with my finger tips

Names are stuff to hang stuff off, sure enough but it's more fun to do stuff than mention it

Bellycaster

@frankus

Lol, I get the message.

Sort of like this message

FFW to 1:45

 

frankus

provided you mean the "names is for tombstones baby" it's a great quote although I can't watch Roger Moore Bond films these days

Bellycaster

frankus said:

provided you mean the "names is for tombstones baby" it's a great quote although I can't watch Roger Moore Bond films these days

@frankus

Yep, that one!

ThePrettyDamned

I've never understood modes, and prefer to do what Frankus said.  Except he clearly has an understanding of what he is doing - I play stuff that sounds good (well, to me) then play stuff over the top until it sounds good, and work out what I did.  And as I play heavy rock, it's very straightforward, with no real need to worry about complex chords or chord changes within the space of a beat (a la jazz).

Diminished arpeggios are just made for sweeping at the end of a solo, though