Am I Entitled to a Refund?

Bellycaster

This is regarding the Roland Cube 80XL in this thread.

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/31901/roland-cube-80xl-didn-t-last-long#latest

I bought it in April 2014 from Gear4music. I only bought it primarily as a S.S back up amp to my Bogner, so it's been played through very infrequently. The further details are in the OP of the above thread link.

Basically, from that thread, especially ICBM's expertise, I have gathered it is unfit for purpose, even a replacement would be pointless as I need something that will handle the job. Now, the Shop(Gear4music), said I am only entitled to have the amp repaired or replaced, this will be undertaken by Roland U.K.

Are they flanneling me? How long do you get under "The Sale of Goods Act 1979" to return something faulty? I've gathered that the law does not actually state a definite period of time re "accepting the goods".

I can't help the fact that I was unable to put it through it's paces until 8 months after I bought it, I wasn't in a band back then so it only got played at low volume and very infrequently. I was under the impression that the amp would easily hack it, but it crapped out before 2 rehearsals were completed.

Simple question really, what are my odds?

Thanks.

capo4th

I think a repair or replacement would be considered fair in this time frame

meltedbuzzbox

I think you get 14 or 30 days return on the distant selling ruling. 

Nothing if you buy from within the shop. 

A warranty repair sounds standard within that time but returning on the grounds that you have changed your mind 8 months later? No chance matey

Bellycaster

capo4th said:

I think a repair or replacement would be considered fair in this time frame

Thanks @capo4th

The way I see it though is that the time frame is subjective. The amount of "use" this amp has had in terms of "playing time" could have been achieved in 5 days for another Guitarist, for me it just happened to be 8 months.

Bellycaster

meltedbuzzbox said:

I think you get 14 or 30 days return on the distant selling ruling. 

Nothing if you buy from within the shop. 

A warranty repair sounds standard within that time but returning on the grounds that you have changed your mind 8 months later? No chance matey

It's a tough one ain't it?
Although I would say, I didn't "change my mind" . I just didn't "find out".

Re the time frame, I can only trust this source which is inconclusive.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/faulty_goods_e/whats_meant_by_accepting_the_goods.htm

Dave_Mc

Under the old rules I was under the impression (and bear in mind, I'm no lawyer) that, as you said, the time frame wasn't set in stone- however, it had to be considered "reasonable" , so, for example, if you bought ski equipment in summer but (obviously enough) only got to put it through its paces in winter, the law would assume that that was a fair enough wait (from the consumer's point of view) so you'd still be entitled to a refund. But if it was something which you had no good reason not to try within a shorter timeframe, then you wouldn't be able to argue that.

You might be able to argue your case from that skiing example point of view, at least under the old rules (buying it as a backup to use in a band, through no fault of your own your band only got together now so you couldn't test it in that situation till now- especially if you asked, when buying it, if it would work for the band situation).

Unfortunately the rules have changed recently, so I'm not sure where you stand now. And like most legal stuff, just because you're (maybe) entitled to it doesn't mean the shop will just fold immediately, you might have to push.

Maybe take a look here to see if they can help: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/consumer_e (and more specifically, here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_what_you_can_do_about_faulty_goods_e/faulty_goods_-_if_you_want_your_money_back.htm )

Richardj

Whilst inconvenient it doesn't sound unreasonable. Most warranties are repair or replace and it it hasn't been found unfit for purpose, just malfunctioning. If a replacement breaks down under the same circumstances you could go down the unfit route. Sorry. Worst case is get it repaired or replaced and if you aren't confident in it sell or trade it.

Bellycaster

Thanks @Dave_Mc

Have a Wiz.

What would the next step be if the shop didn't budge? Sorry, I've been round in circles on the C.A.B Website. To top it all off, I also have worries with another Amp, an expensive one too, concerning a lack of communication from that shop regarding a repair.

John_P

After that length of time, I'm afraid to agree that money back is unlikely - the best result might be to get a replacement and then sell it on as unused - especially if it comes with paperwork to support that.

Dave_Mc

No problem (as I said, I'm no lawyer though so treat what I said with a pinch of salt ) )

Can you contact Citizens' Advice? That's what I'd do. Send them an email outlining the problem, and hopefully they can give you some idea of whether a refund is reasonable or not, legally where you stand etc. (especially point out the bit about not being able to try it in a band situation i.e. high volumes until very recently).

EDIT: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/about_this_site/contact_us.htm

Bellycaster

Thanks @Dave_Mc

I might do that. I fear I may have put the Cart before the Horse though, The shop has arrange the amp to be picked up tomorrow by Courier, I arranged it Saturday in my confused state, but I suppose it would have had to go back anyway. I'll have to call Gear4music again to push for the refund before they send it to Roland UK.

Where's the Facepalm Button.

:-)

Whitecat

In order to be entitled to a refund this long afterwards the onus is on you to prove that the product was faulty when you purchased it. For a "not fit for purpose" refund you have a fairly short time window (the law is unspecific on this but we're definitely talking weeks rather than months if it came to court).

The way the law is written is that after this much time you are deemed to have "accepted" the amp and thus you are only entitled to a repair or a replacement.

Sadly, I think you're out of luck pursuing a refund. I agree with @Richardj - get it fixed and then sell it or trade it if you want it out of your sight.

Mick

http://www.gear4music.com/information/returns-and-refunds  And  Guarantee & Warranty

Bellycaster

Thanks @Mick

I understand that, but like some have said, nothing is "set in stone" as far as the Law is concerned, every shop has to have a Policy, it's just whether you can argue it out with them and win. I think they know most people just don't need the hassle.

I'll have another go at them on the phone, but I don't hold out much hope.

Jez6345789

Depends how hard you want to push, some will cave at the threat of legal action some will settle the day before court. It will also depend onwhat condition it is in. If it was knocked about or covered in dust during storage the the retailer has no where to go in terms of recouping his loss through getting it repaired and selling it as B grade stock. There might be some movement if you just want a different model. Their default line unless pushed will be repair

ICBM

I have to say that regardless of my opinion on the quality of these amps, I don't think it's arguable that they're not fit for purpose. The vast majority of them work perfectly well.

If the design is a bit marginal, it's only that - not poor enough that a failure is a certainty or even a strong possibility. To prove lack of fitness for purpose you would have to show evidence of a design fault which made failure more or less inevitable sooner or later, and that's definitely not the case.

I actually can't think of a modern guitar amp which would warrant a claim as not fit for purpose, although there are a few which might be getting a bit close! But it depends on how you define 'purpose'. They might argue that running overdrive and/or boost pedals into the front of an amp which should already have enough gain falls outside reasonable usage. (Wrongly in my opinion, but I'm not a claims lawyer.)

Drew_TNBD

Yeah... tbh matey... you're kinda being a bit naughty here.

p90fool

I think any offer of a refund would be purely a goodwill gesture on their part, they certainly don't have to as far as I'm aware.

If the fact that you run a 100w Fender Frontman 2x12 with the volume on 8 is any indicator of how loud you need an unmiked amp to be, then I'd guess that the Cube which blew up on you is probably fit for most purposes other than yours.

Purely an afterthought, but is there any reason you can't mic your amps, I assume you must have a PA?

ThePrettyDamned

p90fool said:

I think any offer of a refund would be purely a goodwill gesture on their part, they certainly don't have to as far as I'm aware.

If the fact that you run a 100w Fender Frontman 2x12 with the volume on 8 is any indicator of how loud you need an unmiked amp to be, then I'd guess that the Cube which blew up on you is probably fit for most purposes other than yours.

Purely an afterthought, but is there any reason you can't mic your amps, I assume you must have a PA?

Those things are loud, absolutely killed me when I ran one at 5... 

shuikit

This link might help..  http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

You might be able to argue 'not fit for purpose' as you might be able to argue that the amp should be able to handle what you're doing with it.  BUT, by the sounds of it you will probably have to go to small claims court to argue this and you'll probably have to somehow prove that the amp was inherently faulty and it wasn't something that was done by you. 

Adam_MD

@Bellycaster unless the store decide to be very nice you've no hope of a refund. Certainly under rules governing 'not fit for purpose'. I know you say you can't help the fact you couldn't try it at volume until 8 months after purchase but it's not the retailers fault either.
During the first 6 months of guarantee its up to the retailer to prove a fault hasn't existed from day 1, in the next 6 months it's down to the customer to prove a pre existing fault. You'd have to pay for an independent engineer to produce a report on the fault and submit that. Roland would then have a chance to let their own engineers look at it. The whole process would take a long time you'd still be unlikely to get a refund.

By all means push the retailer for a refund and if they cave congratulations but they have absolutely no legal responsibility to do so. Personally if it was an 8 month old product in one of my stores I'd be repairing or exchanging it as well.