So school me on pa systems

close2u

In my current band I seem to have become responsible for sourcing our first pa.
See my recent discussions.
I am a total pa noob however.
I don't understand :
The technical vocabulary,
The compatability issues,
The good from the bad,
The electronic considerations,
The dos and don'ts,
Etc etc etc

The band is a 4 piece, 3 vocals (1 main, 2 backing). Our needs are modest to start with.

We want a system within the next few weeks. I've had a couple of offers on here. I've seen loads on local classified sites. I keep passing info on to the band. I'd like to be more informed so I can filter what I send them and include additional advice too.
And for my own learning on what a PA system is, does, and how to set it up and use it.

Thanks.

koneguitarist

First off, my approach is threefold, 

1get the best you can afford 

2 learn how to use it well, 

3 buy a system you can grow with.

Some things look great with a huge amount of spec but often has things a regular band will probably never use, such as 6 Aux outs. 

Basics I look for in a desk for my band ( a 5pc band with 3-4 vocals and keys) are at least 12 mic channels, always think if you need 7-8 channels, get a 12, 10-11 channels get a 16 channel desk. 

A good Eq with high and low and at least a swept midrange Eq. Treble middle and bass don't work very well when you start to use acoustic instruments. By this I mean a mid range control where you can cut and boost a frequency that may be causing a problem in the mix. 

I like Allen and Heath mixers due to their sound quality, I am sure other guys prefer Yamaha, Spirit or Peavey all do a good job as do others. 

Speakers, I prefer to use a pair of RCF 310A which are active speakers, (the power amp is built into speaker) which for 99% of my gigs in pubs and clubs is ample. They get the vocals out nice and clear with a fast response. I don't like 15"speakers with a horn, as this to me is a compromise, ie "yeah mate you can put drums bass and whole band through them!". 

Yes you can, but compared to 10"s on tops and dedicated bins for low end they are second best by a long way. 

Whilst playing in a country band for a few years, we hauled a full bi amped rig around, ie with a pair of 12" on top then a pair of EV bass bins, power amps, crossover (to split single into above and below a set frequency) graphic EQ and FX all rack mounted. Sounded great, more power than we would ever need, but lot more trips to van, lot longer setting up and packing up. And not one person commented on lack of sound from the new light weight system which takes minutes and fits in a Small hatchback along with guitars amp and leads boxes, stands etc etc.

A small quality vocal PA can be added to, for instance better speakers, or adding bass bins when needed.

Again this is just my thoughts, but so many young bands look at getting best drums, guitars, amps they can then forget the singer must be heard by same quality not some cheap PA with inadequate Eq and speakers with blown tweeters! When punters hear the band for first time they hear the band, not the guitarists new rig, and if they can't hear what singer is singing or its all feeding back then you can guess their thoughts!

koneguitarist

Most common mistake young or inexperienced bands make is sheer volume, especially when playing with other bands, they all want to be louder than everyone else.

Volume is no replacement for talent. 

Work with drummers natural volume, don't mic him up in a small room if he is loud enough already, or you will soon run out of headroom, ie the volume that you should always have in reserve. Monitors put vocals through them, but do you need drums through them when you are down a pub on a small stage? I recently did a small festival where I told sound person, I only want vocals and keys through the Monitors as we all had our own Backline and we could hear drummer and each other with stage volume lower. Still kept putting drums through monitors and telling us that we have all he can give us on vocals otherwise it would feedback, moron. Rule no 1 if you know how to get the bands sound it is much easier to get it when working with others who are not familiar with band. Practice doing sound with your band. Learn what the EQ does, try making sounds lower or higher in mix without using volume faders. Setting mid range in different ways can lose a vocal in the mix or allow it to punch through without using up your headroom. Speaker placement is another biggie for me, I like my speakers up above head height if I can or main speaker driver at least head height so horns are unimpeded. Also playing on a big stage for first time, don't all spread out so far you lose contact with each other, which will mean more monitors, more volume on stage etc.

jpfamps

I would concur with the above: good practical advice from a gigging musician.

I would avoid putting drums and bass through the PA unless you have the gear and experience to do so.

One feature I think is essential on a live desk is a high pass filter (HPF). This rolls the bass off, usually at either 80 or 100 Hz and prevent low frequency noise getting into mics where it shouldn't eg vocal mics.

Getting the vocals clear FOH requires that there is enough headroom in the PA, that feedback has been minimized by correct mic placement and eqing, and that the band are not too loud (the usual problem in my experience).

It is worth once you get your system to get into a largeish space and setting it up as you would a gig, so you can familiarize yourself with the gear and sound FOH.

close2u

close2u said:

I don't understand :
The technical vocabulary,
The compatability issues,
The good from the bad,
The electronic considerations,
The dos and don'ts

Many thanks both for your wisdom.

1] vocabulary

Rack cases ... 4u, 2u etc?

Crossover?

2] compatability issues

between power amps & speakers etc?

3] the good from the bad

A simplified list of manufacturers (no nuances necessary, just a rough guide)

e.g. 

Allen & Heath - very good, pricey

4] electronics

8 ohms, 4 ohms etc?

5] dos and don'ts

already been addressed above ... although any and all wisdom is welcome to someone starting out with no knowledge

close2u

Further ...

What are the pros & cons of:

a] powered speakers vs passive?

b] powered monitors vs passive?

c] bigger speakers in the tops vs smaller (say 10" vs 12" vs 15" speakers)?

d] separate power amp & mixer vs all-in-one powered mixer?

e] an all-in-one system such as Peavey Triflex or Yamaha Stagepas etc?

Gassage

Apparently I have heard having a PA done is very, very painful...however, if your missus likes it, go for it....

Hope this helps

koneguitarist

close2u said:

Further ...

What are the pros & cons of:

a]

powered speakers vs pamnssive?  

Powered speakers have amp speciffically designed for speaker and enclosure so all you do is plug it into desk and turn it up. Passive is more adaptable for using multiples with different sizes of amps.

b] powered monitors vs passive?

Same as above really. 

c] bigger speakers in the tops vs smaller (say 10" vs 12" vs 15" speakers)?

10's or 12's to me seem better for reproducing upper Mids and the top end in conjunction with a horn of tweeter. Most of a regular bands power that needs reinforcement is in the upper mids and top end, vocals and guitars etc. 15's for the tops always seem to me to be a compromise, they will handle lows better as a stand alone speaker, but when used as part of a full system with bass bins, they suffer.10's 12's are better for adding to as you have more money, experience and knowledge. 

d] separate power amp & mixer vs all-in-one powered mixer?

If you have active speakers, you don't need the powered mixer amp or power amp just a mixer. 

If using passive speakers, I prefer a desk and power amp, but for majority of your needs a mixer amp is fine.

e] an all-in-one system such as Peavey Triflex or Yamaha Stagepas etc?

Choice of money v quality a lot of the time. Never had a problem with Peavey ever, well priced and does what it says for no extra cost.  You can build your own system for PA same as guitar setup, don't have to buy a Strat with fender twin and fender pedals, but it works. You could buy a strat with a Marshall and Boss pedals, still work but it might suit you better. 

viz

Yep I agree, go for powered ("active") speakers rather than a powered mixer. I'd get a simple but reliable and high quality mixer like a soundcraft 16 channel, 2nd hand, something with plenty of eq tweaking, monitor outs, FX, neutrik sockets, and 100mm faders, and then some 400w speakers like the carlsbro gamma range. You can later beef them them up with powered 600w bins if you want. Monitor speakers will also have to be powered - we use more gamma 400s because they work in portrait and landscape (wedge) position. The speakers are very rugged and need no protection from car journeys. The desk could do with a hard case - many desks on ebay come with one.

viz

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/231454826113?nav=SEARCH

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/161549993126?nav=SEARCH

koneguitarist

As for good v bad. Peavey is always great value for solid equipment. 

Desks I like Allen and Heath, Spirit, not so keen on Mackie or Yamaha, always sound slightly harsh to my ears.

Speakers powered, I love the RCF 310a so I bought some after trying out loads of makes. Not saying they are the best, but what I prefer. 

EV can be bought quite cheaply on SH market now, the SX300 are great for out doors, throw the sound for miles, not so keen on them in small pubs, can sound messy, slightly distorted, mainly the horns.

If weight not an issue the old Peavey HiSys range are awesome value, great speakers and really cheap as they are considered heavy  compared to the new systems. 

Not gonna say what is crap, as it's subjective, ViZ uses the Carlsbro, which I wouldnt, he's not wrong to use them they work for him.

The key is a good solid desk, cheap desk into good speakers sound rubbish, good desk into cheaper speakers, you can still get a decent sound due to EQ quality on the desk. 

I am sure others will weigh in with what's shit or great, check reviews, but you should be spending more on PA than on your guitar set up in my humble Opinion

viz

Yep and the beauty of going passive desk/active speakers, is that you can buy a good desk, once, then beef up your power incrementally via more speakers as and when, and you'll never be underpowered on your desk. The flipside is that you'll effectively be having to buy an amp for every speaker you get.

Re. the Carlsbros, they do seem to have a mid-quality, mid-price sort of name in the market, mainly for sounding a bit boxy, but I've not found that, and like Kone says, a good desk will overcome that through eq. I use them because they were incredibly good vfm on the 2nd hand market. Yes EVs are excellent, and Mackie do great speakers (better than their desks imo). Peavey, I find (wow how subjective is this!) that they're cheap, robust, but add a certain Peavey colour to the sound.

Unless you're getting floor standing speakers you'll also need stands - I recommend getting stands which have 'industrial strength' or 'pro' or 'heavy duty' in the title.

koneguitarist

Oh another thing to add, as Vizsaid good speaker stands are a must, but also speaker leads, whether you are using active, in which case good quality mic leads xlr to xlr will be fine, if passive, use quality speaker lead and try not to go to rediculous lengths, or you can get problems with capacitance.

ICBM

Resistance, not capacitance .

I came across that as a problem when doing outdoor PA for speech days at a school I used to work for - the resistance of 100m of speaker cable (if its fairly thin) is getting up to a few ohms, into the same range as the speakers, and will make quite a difference. The capacitance of any two-separate-core unshielded cable is negligible though. [/geek]

Totally agree with everything else you've said too.

The one thing I would add is that I don't really like powered PA cabs, unless you're getting very good ones - they tend to be unreliable compared to passives and a good old-school power amp. Admittedly separates are more hassle to carry and set up.

Danny1969

First you gotta anticipate what size gigs your gonna be doing. There's no sense buying something that's only powerful enough to do pubs if there's bigger clubs or venues to do. Having to hire in stuff to do the bigger stuff is a pain and obviously cost money. Outdoor work in the summer can use a fair bit of power as well so having a nice powerful PA is a handy thing

Active systems are very reliable and most are class D so quite light. They are actually more hassle to setup than passive to a certain degree as each speaker needs mains power as well as an XLR input but it does mean you don't need to run long speaker runs anymore. 

What you buy depends on budget and how serious the gigging is. We have an HK Actor DX that has operated flawlessly over the last 5 years and sounds crystal clear even at very high SPL's ....... but that cost 4.5K which is a lot of money if your only gonna gig a couple of times a month. You get a 5 year warranty which is nice

Another band I'm in has got a Mackie SRM setup, 2 X 18" Bins and 12" tops. For a cheap system it's quite effective and powerful enough to cover up to around 300 people indoors. I;ve had to fix the pots on the bins though, design fault means they stick out and get broken off. You can get a used SRM package for about £1250 ish

QSC K series packs a lot of power in quite portable packages, even the subs are small enough to go in a car and I've done years of gigs with no problems. Again they are pricier but decent PA is. 

The little EV stuff is pokey but a bit directional, incredible SPL for their size though

Desk wise I would get an AH QU16, sounds great, easy to use and controllable via iPad which can save you a lot of hassle. If you have to learn how to use a desk you might as well learn how to use a digital desk cos sooner or later they will all be digital anyway. Other cheaper but ok options are Mackie DL1608 and Presonus  StudioLive series. SM pro have a stupidly low priced digital wireless mixer out now from only £199, prices really are falling 

close2u

Budget ... max £800.

Really, that is more than we can afford so £500 ish is much more comfortable.

See here for a 'Wanted' ad.

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/31491/wtb-pa-system-for-band

See here for possible buying options I'd like advice on.

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/32659/help-me-in-my-confusion

Danny1969

You can't expect much for £500 but here's an example of what you can get

Keep your eyes on these JBL'S  I have 2 pairs of these, one pair in my rehearsal room which is a pretty demanding enviroment and for what they cost they are very robust and capable of quite high SPL coverage.  I would expect them to make around £250 ish which would leave you enough for this Soundcraft Powerstation

The same rehearsal room has the 16 channel version of the Powerstation in it and it's done around 25 hours a week for the last 2 years with no failures 

Then you just need some speaker leads, mic leads and mics 

koneguitarist

close2u said:

Budget ... max £800.

Really, that is more than we can afford so £500 ish is much more comfortable.

See here for a 'Wanted' ad.

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/31491/wtb-pa-system-for-band

See here for possible buying options I'd like advice on.

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/32659/help-me-in-my-confusion

I would look at some active (powered) speakers SH, a decent pair of 10-12" tops could be got between £300-350 and a SH mixer between 150-250. Don't buy cheap it never lasts, and your first gigs with them could be your last. If you sound bad who is gonna rebook you, you can play badly with a good sound and get rebooked though! Been doing it for 38 years Sorry ICBM that's what I meant, same thing just different spelling 8-}

Phil_aka_Pip

Gassage said:

Apparently I have heard having a PA done is very, very painful...however, if your missus likes it, go for it....

Hope this helps

It isn't, but you will feel a little prick

IanSavage

If you wanted to go the separates or powered speakers route, I've got a Soundcraft Spirit Live 12 desk doing nothing that you could have for a ton? Fully-working except that on of the LEDs in the meters is dead, I keep meaning to replace it  - can bump that to the top of my soldering 'to-do' list if you might be interested? One of these (Not this actual one, but identical):

https://www.zikinf.com/_gfx/annonces/dyn/soundcraft-spirit-live-972839.jpg 

lustycourtier

koneguitarist said:

 

Work with drummers natural volume, don't mic him up in a small room if he is loud enough already, or you will soon run out of headroom,

  Id disagree with that. Drums need to be balanced for dynamics. Even if we are playing a tiny pub, the snare, Bassdrum and and Overhead is used. Id never take a band seriously who didnt mic the kit or Backline to some extent. The PA is there to help spread the sound.