Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

bloodandtears

Clarky said:

bloodandtears said:

It's my understanding that the modes can be viewed as a major or minor scale with a number of notes displaced... these being the flavour notes.

i.e. because the Lydian mode is a Major mode, the Lydian scale can be seen as a Major scale with a #4 note.

and that generous use of the flavour notes in chords progressions and melodies will accentuate the modal feel.

Now if ths is correct then I rationalise that equally the following fits too..

Dorian : minor mode : #6 (when compared to minor scale) - raised 6th
Phrygian : minor mode : b2 (when compared to minor scale) - minor 2nd
Lydian : Major mode : #4 (when compared to Major 'Ionian' scale) - augmented 4th
Mixolydian : Major mode : b7 (when compared to Major scale) - minor 7th


or are all references intended to be made to the Major scale?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)#Mixolydian_.28V.29 is making sense at last!!!

this is all true... note though that if someone does not fully understand intervals or the major and minor scales, all they nice info you've written won't mean much to them..

maybe not but it proves I'm making progress..

MatthewShreddery

In fear of turning this thread into the 'me' show, I'd just like to clarify that I understand modes very well and my earlier post was something of a tongue-in-cheek rant about the confusion this topic causes. Often in people that are yet to understand more fundamental areas of music theory before delving into modes.

Some good stuff in here for some people. Don't let me spoil it.

I'm out.

GuyBoden

To avoid any more confusion the info below is similar to the basics of what I was taught many years ago:

Clarky

GuyBoden said:

To avoid any more confusion the info below is similar to the basics of what I was taught many years ago:

this is really nice because it shows all of the modes with respect to the same tonic..

to make it easier for guitar players, if all this was shown with E as the tonic you'll be able to play an open 6th string and then noodle with each mode.. then each mode's voice will stand out distinctly

Freebird

this is really nice because it shows all of the modes with respect to the same tonic..to make it easier for guitar players, if all this was shown with E as the tonic you'll be able to play an open 6th string and then noodle with each mode.. then each mode's voice will stand out distinctly

It's the reason why I started this thread, because the chart in the original post makes it clear that you could hear the different flavours if you played them on a single string, with the 6th fret being the tritone and the tetrachords on either side of it, That was my breakthrough! 

ChrisMusic

Clarky said:

To get to actually hear the tonal coloration of each mode, you need to noodle with them against the same bass note..

only then will their distinct personalities leap out at you..

From then on, there are some very very cool tricks you can do with them that can put quite an exciting new lease of life into our old / well trod lick vocabulary..

Hey there Mr @Clarky, I am looking forward to you explaining some of the "cool tricks" you referred to, and I could do with a new lease of life too.  If you have a few minutes to spare, that would be great   

Clarky

I locate modes within the pentatonic scale..

why? because they are really easy to locate and visualise

I'm talking about the Em pentatonic shape that starts on the 12th fret, and the one that hangs off the lower side of the 12th fret

and this is made even better because if you move the shape down the neck by 3 frets, it becomes the major pentatonic

a pentatonic scale contains 5 of the 7 notes in a scale..

there are two places in the pentatonic scale that contain min3rd intervals

depending how you 'fill in' these min3rd spaces will determine your mode

example:

the 1st and 2nd strings, frets 12 and 15 are where these min3rd 'spaces' are

fill them in like this:

1st string add 14th fret

2nd string add 13th fret

and the result is the natural minor [Aeolian].. 

in this case, Em

if you keep these 'filler notes' but move the pentatonic scale 3 frets down the neck

you end up with the major pentatonic with the filler notes creating a major [Ionian] scale

in this case, E maj

move this shape back to the minor position for the minor, and then continue to move it up by another 2 frets [so now it looks like F#m pent]..

this shape becomes E Mixolydian mode

now change the fillers:

now go back to the 1st and 2nd strings frets 12 and 15 are where these min3rd 'spaces' are

this time, fill them in like this:

1st string add 14th fret

2nd string add 14th fret

and the result is E Dorian mode

if you keep these 'filler notes' but move the pentatonic scale 3 frets down the neck

you end up with the major pentatonic with the filler notes creating E Lydian mode

short cuts that are easy to locate and visualise

Clarky

and of course, you can find these 'filler's an octave below on the 3rd and 4th strings in the lower pentatonic shape

ChrisMusic

@Clarky ~ thank you kindly, young sir   

Clarky

does all that stuff make sense??

it's not easy to explain in words..

but so much simpler to show when someone's sat opposite me

bloodandtears

Clarky said:

does all that stuff make sense??

it's not easy to explain in words..

but so much simpler to show when someone's sat opposite me

this bit confused me..  " and the one that hangs off the lower side of the 12th fret and this is made even better because if you move the shape down the neck by 3 frets, it becomes the major pentatonic"

Although I do understand the concept you are explaining; moving the pentatonic "box", with certain "filler notes" will result in a mode.

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

I locate modes within the pentatonic scale..

why? because they are really easy to locate and visualise

I'm talking about the Em pentatonic shape that starts on the 12th fret, and the one that hangs off the lower side of the 12th fret

and this is made even better because if you move the shape down the neck by 3 frets, it becomes the major pentatonic

a pentatonic scale contains 5 of the 7 notes in a scale..

there are two places in the pentatonic scale that contain min3rd intervals

depending how you 'fill in' these min3rd spaces will determine your mode

example:

the 1st and 2nd strings, frets 12 and 15 are where these min3rd 'spaces' are

fill them in like this:

1st string add 14th fret

2nd string add 13th fret

and the result is the natural minor [Aeolian].. 

in this case, Em

if you keep these 'filler notes' but move the pentatonic scale 3 frets down the neck

you end up with the major pentatonic with the filler notes creating a major [Ionian] scale

in this case, E maj

move this shape back to the minor position for the minor, and then continue to move it up by another 2 frets [so now it looks like F#m pent]..

this shape becomes E Mixolydian mode

now change the fillers:

now go back to the 1st and 2nd strings frets 12 and 15 are where these min3rd 'spaces' are

this time, fill them in like this:

1st string add 14th fret

2nd string add 14th fret

and the result is E Dorian mode

if you keep these 'filler notes' but move the pentatonic scale 3 frets down the neck

you end up with the major pentatonic with the filler notes creating E Lydian mode

short cuts that are easy to locate and visualise

Please, please, please, learn the fretboard, it makes playing easy, start with C Ionian (C Major), then learn all the most popular keys: G Major, D Major, C Major, F Major. Learn one key a month, sing each note as you play it, get to know each note intuitively by sight and sound. Within each key you'll find all the modes...............


You'll need an organisational system, so break it down using the CAGED or 3 notes per string system.

Once you know all the most popular Ionian keys, just flatten the 3rd note and you'll have the Melodic Minor modes.

Here's C Ionian:




Changed the E to Eb and you get C Melodic Minor.

Clarky

the big prob with a diagram like that is that it's too big..

no one views the fretboard like that in its entirety

start small and grow it

and never learn different keys as if they are different fingerings

it's far too inefficient

Clarky

bloodandtears said:

Clarky said:

does all that stuff make sense??

it's not easy to explain in words..

but so much simpler to show when someone's sat opposite me

this bit confused me..  " and the one that hangs off the lower side of the 12th fret and this is made even better because if you move the shape down the neck by 3 frets, it becomes the major pentatonic"

Although I do understand the concept you are explaining; moving the pentatonic "box", with certain "filler notes" will result in a mode.

the 'hangs' bit is a crap choice of words on my part..

try this..

the pentatonic we all know and love in Em

12 - - 15

12 - - 15

12 - 14

12 - 14

12 - 14

12 - - 15

the one I meant that 'hangs' from the 12th fret [rather than being above it] is this

- 10 - 12

- 10 - 12

9 - - 12

9 - - 12

- 10 - 12

- 10 - 12

notice that the 2 inner strings also have the nice big gap you can fill in too to find the modes

so with the two most basic pentatonic scale fingerings, you have a nice big range of notes to play with

of course scales and modes are all over the neck.. but learning stuff all over the neck takes time..

this method of filling in the gaps and moving the pentatonic around is a quick and easy way to get a meaningful experience with modes.. 

why? because it sits within a pentatonic fingering pattern that is generally very familiar with most guitar players..

this means you have less to get your head around and so you have a fair chance to be able to noodle with these new ideas and do something musical and creative with them.. your existing lick vocabulary can be messed with within these patterns..

so… you're not exactly starting with absolutely no ideas at all..

when you're familiar with this.. it can be expanded..

the whole point is to learn something small, meaningful and useful

then grow it..

thomasross20

I know the modes better than I do the pentatonics lol

bloodandtears

@Clarky - so essentially you suggest beginning with the E position and G position from the CAGED system..

.. and as you suggest, tinker with "filler" notes to accentuate the modes...

Good stuff.. cheers

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

the big prob with a diagram like that is that it's too big..

no one views the fretboard like that in its entirety

start small and grow it

and never learn different keys as if they are different fingerings

it's far too inefficient

Yes, I agree, "start small and grow it", I did mention that you need a system of fretbaord organisation, CAGED, 3NPS etc..... I've been studying guitar since I was 14 years old. Rock, Pop, Jazz, Classical, that's over 35 years of knowledge..............

For anyone interested, I'll be posting a series of lessons on "Learning the Fretboard with a Modal perspective" in the techniques section of the forum.

Here's the first lesson using the fretboard's open positions, with a modal perspective:

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/39693/learning-the-fretboard-with-a-modal-perspective

Clarky

bloodandtears said:

@Clarky - so essentially you suggest beginning with the E position and G position from the CAGED system..

.. and as you suggest, tinker with "filler" notes to accentuate the modes...

Good stuff.. cheers

I think of them as pentatonic shapes rather than caged.. to be honest it really don't matter.. the only thing that is important is that you have an efficient / very quick means of locating and recognising the scales you want / need to use..

you don't want to be looking at the neck, trying to figure out what fingers are available.. you need to be able to hit them as if they are a sort of reflex..

Clarky

GuyBoden said:

Clarky said:

the big prob with a diagram like that is that it's too big..

no one views the fretboard like that in its entirety

start small and grow it

and never learn different keys as if they are different fingerings

it's far too inefficient

Yes, I agree, "start small and grow it", I did mention that you need a system of fretbaord organisation, CAGED, 3NPS etc..... I've been studying guitar since I was 14 years old. Rock, Pop, Jazz, Classical, that's over 35 years of knowledge..............

For anyone interested, I'll be posting a series of lessons on "Learning the Fretboard with a Modal perspective" in the techniques section of the forum.

Here's the first lesson using the fretboard's open positions, with a modal perspective:

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/39693/learning-the-fretboard-with-a-modal-perspective

I totally see where you're going with this... but there is a risk..

the risk is that these fingerings are for modes that all use the same centre key.. C in the above examples..

so the prob [to the nooby mode learner] is that whilst learning these, they're getting an ear-full of C tonality..

scales and modes make so much more sense when the tonic is kept the same.. then each one's unique voice has a better chance of shining through..

when I teach this stuff.. I first walk through my lil' "fill in the gaps" trick.. cos that minimises how much the student has to remember..

then I bung on a simple backing track I made in Logic.. just drums playing a simple groove and a bass guitar pumping on E [with no other notes].. then the student and I walk through each of the modes in turn.. it's then that they start to hear and feel the unique voices... then we start playing around with parallel modulation [although they don't know it at the time] where I get them to noodle around in one mode, then I call out to switch to another.. then again and again... they not only get used to switching between them on the fly, but they also really start to appreciate how they sound, what ideas [from their stock lick vocab] work, don't work and can be made to work with some small alterations... it's not just an exercise on switching fingerings, it also allows the flexing of a little creative muscle... and most of all, it's an absolute blast..

keep 'em having fun with stuff and it'll really stick

I do actually teach 3NPS scales all over the neck in G starting from fret 3 [right up to the octave and back].. initially I use this to teach basic navigation of the neck.. later I use this as a warm up, to nail home picking and fretting technique, to nail timing [cos it's eventually done against a metro].. and also to get the ear to have the major scale hammered into it [so they can eventually start hearing when notes are in or out - cos at first, some folks cannot hear this at all].. so my lil' "G Everywhere" exercise is a general purpose thing I use to address and refine a multitude of performance / musicianship elements..

GuyBoden

Clarky said:

I totally see where you're going with this... but there is a risk..

the risk is that these fingerings are for modes that all use the same centre key.. C in the above examples..

so the prob [to the nooby mode learner] is that whilst learning these, they're getting an ear-full of C tonality..

scales and modes make so much more sense when the tonic is kept the same.. then each one's unique voice has a better chance of shining through..

when I teach this stuff.. I first walk through my lil' "fill in the gaps" trick.. cos that minimises how much the student has to remember..

then I bung on a simple backing track I made in Logic.. just drums playing a simple groove and a bass guitar pumping on E [with no other notes].. then the student and I walk through each of the modes in turn.. it's then that they start to hear and feel the unique voices... then we start playing around with parallel modulation [although they don't know it at the time] where I get them to noodle around in one mode, then I call out to switch to another.. then again and again... they not only get used to switching between them on the fly, but they also really start to appreciate how they sound, what ideas [from their stock lick vocab] work, don't work and can be made to work with some small alterations... it's not just an exercise on switching fingerings, it also allows the flexing of a little creative muscle... and most of all, it's an absolute blast..

keep 'em having fun with stuff and it'll really stick

I do actually teach 3NPS scales all over the neck in G starting from fret 3 [right up to the octave and back].. initially I use this to teach basic navigation of the neck.. later I use this as a warm up, to nail home picking and fretting technique, to nail timing [cos it's eventually done against a metro].. and also to get the ear to have the major scale hammered into it [so they can eventually start hearing when notes are in or out - cos at first, some folks cannot hear this at all].. so my lil' "G Everywhere" exercise is a general purpose thing I use to address and refine a multitude of performance / musicianship elements..

Good stuff, I understand your concern about "an ear-full of C tonality", I do use the root note as a Drone note, exactly the same method as you described. It's a good, tried and tested method and has been used for many years (Frank Gambale, John Coltrane). But, I don't think the Drone note method really explains much about how Modal harmony functions and each Mode's characteristic sound, so hopefully I'll be using both Drone notes and Modal Harmony in the  lessons I'll be posting.......

Have fun
Guy