Digital Amps a Warning From History

p90fool

DrJazzTap said:

I heard that Buddy Guy was switching over to an Axe FX2 and a TC G system......maybe

I only saw him live once and he was using a Cyber Twin...

markv

I would like to think that the pace of change in digital modelling would slow down as the sound more closely approaches the ostensible goal, i.e. to make the digital amps sound like analogue amps.

However, as technology companies, their *business* goal is to keep making more money. So we will start to see the introduction of more and more "essential" features aimed not at improving the sound but at making customers keep buying. We have seen it with smart phones, for example.

viz

I think you can get a pretty authentic, massive, attacking sound using modelling, if you tweak it right with plenty of bass and get the majority of your overdrive from a tubescreamer. I was delighted with this. Especially on the chords at 0:40.



One reviewer said my sound was explosive with huge black sabbath style guitar riffs . That was just a dimarzio evolutions, keeley tubescreamer, bad horsie, and a pod.

PolarityMan

How the fuck do you manage to play that well with gloves on?

RaymondLin

rsvmark said:

No one has mentioned speaker technology yet. 

Let's take TV sound. You can buy pretty respectable 'sound bars' that have tiny drivers and model 5.1 surround without rear speakers. They may not be perfect, some are better than others etc but they are out there.

My lad bought a tiny Bose Bluetooth speaker for his phone and its is no bigger that 6" long, and that puts out a decent sound,. The Beats equivalent was shite.

Anyway, point being, is that the traditionalists may rely on cabs of a variety of configurations up to 4x12s but they are big and heavy. I am assuming the digital stuff goes straight into a desk. 

Is the next thing the introduction of smaller, highly efficient cabs thus making smaller heads/combos more attractive?

Just a thought

Traditional cone style speaker technology has stayed static pretty much for decades, there is a saying "there is no replacement for displacement"  Simply put, you can't beat a big driver that moves more air if you want a bigger sound.  The enclosure helps but it can only go so far, all things being equal, bigger is better.  The alternative speakers like the flat panel ones require a subwoofer still.  

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_fx;627316" said:

Interesting. I'd like to see a band that uses a modeller that isn't a djenty band.

Pth don't do "djent" but they use a pretty classic hot rod Marshall sound. They don't rely on huge bass and thud though - clarity and mix is the order of the day (two fast guitars, complex drums and a bass tapping out big harmonies and riffs).

So I suspect you're still right - if you want that big, thumping sound a big amp and a 4x12 is still the way to go. It just works for big riffs and that "whump" you get on a palm mute.

Trivium sounded huge but again, two guitars, a bass, tight drums and a pro mix are probably why.

viz

PolarityMan said:

How the fuck do you manage to play that well with gloves on?

Oh hardly good playing but thank you for saying so! It must look more difficult than it is - I just wrote a solo that was easy and didn't sound too muffled! Sweeps, long legato runs and harmonics don't work with gloves but that stuff's all fine, no difference with them or without them in fact.

Cirrus

Thing

Drew_fx said:

Interesting. I'd like to see a band that uses a modeller that isn't a djenty band.

When I saw these guys in 2005 the stage was full of Line 6 Vetta modelling amps, sounded pretty sweet to me at the time... at least until some drunk dude threw a pint on the mixing desk.

Fiftyshadesofjay

I use mine in a heavy band, we're about as far removed from Djent (hate that word) as you can get, we're more along the lines of Iron Monkey/Black Sabbath.

I get plenty of thump from mine, granted I use a 4x12 also but it's not mic'd. When you're running through a PA it makes zero difference, I'm up against our other guitarists 6505 half stack and my front of house sound is easily as great, obviously I consider it better. Plus it's super clean, no bleed from other instruments which makes it easier for our FOH and monitor guy.

If you think that the valve amp is a super thick tone out front and mine's thin and weedy you'd be very much mistaken.

Drew_TNBD

When I saw Monuments and Karnivool a few months back, it was ridiculous how much better Karnivool sounded.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

When I saw Monuments and Karnivool a few months back, it was ridiculous how much better Karnivool sounded.

Yeah but you could say the exact same about the albums.  Monuments go for that thin Djent thing which relies on a well mixed and tightly played bass guitar blending underneath it.  Unless the bass tone is killing it live then I'd absolutely expect it all to sound thin.

Fiftyshadesofjay

There's tons of variables as to why one band could sound better than the other, i.e. sound engineer, tone dialled in, maybe one band just sounded better in general no matter what?  

In my situation we have a traditional amp and digital running together and neither is inferior at the end of the day, our sound engineer agrees, and even started using a redbox as well as a mic on the Peavey as he loves working with the direct tone.

As an aside, when we rehearse I use the Kemper into a cab, no mic of course and it still competes with the Peavey easily.

drwiddly

As I posted in the 'gigging a Kemper' thread, I used mine the other night into the return of a 1x12, 35w, valve combo with a direct feed to FOH and it sounded massive.
Other guitarist uses a GT-100 into a Marshall JVM via 4cm and I had no problem cutting through. I do find that a valve power stage feels better and is punchier with digital gear but that's just IMO.
I play in an 80's classic rock band doing AC/DC, Whitesnake, Rainbow, Dio, Y&T, etc so nothing 'djenty' at all.

StefB

As a non-metal example I'm quite pleased with Steve Howe's tone from a Vetta II combo in this 2008 Asia clip of Heat Of The Moment - the riff sounds authentic enough and skip to 3m07 for the solo.

It helps being a great player of course, even if you do look like a cross between Skeletor and Dr Emmett Brown.

John Wetton appears to be playing a Roland DBS bass rig too which, from memory, is also digital?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b35x2Q3pUAw

EricTheWeary

If you see digital stuff demoed you get all these options and I'm sure a lot of people will think ' I don't need all that stuff, it's not for me' and any other advantages are lost. However, I think one of the most interesting digital users is country player Pete Anderson. One of his fender's was modelled for the first PODs. He still uses that amp for recording and tweaks the knobs here and there. So live he can use a POD not to create complex and varied sounds but to create a bunch of relatively small variations, replicate what he did in the studio for each song . He also uses MIDI to connect delay to a click that goes to the drummer. So the sound to the audience is that of a Deluxe and some slapback delay but those tweaks give it a refinement that you couldn't do with a single amp. If he were starting from scratch now I guess he could do all that with a Kemper. A lot of name guitarists don't want endless variety but they might like ten fine tuned versions of their favourite amp.

guitarfishbay

So The Offspring are now using Axe FX 2s.

Sounds pretty fat.  Though the guy gets told off for having beers at the end of the short clip haha.

This is a close up, more distorted sound and the change to distortion from clean is late so I think they're manually switching and not using MIDI.  But it sounds ok to me from what you can tell.

They're using Axe FX 2s, Matrix GT1000FX in to Egnater cabs on stage for Noodles anyway.  Looking at the volume knobs they're playing fairly quietly on stage, I think, depending on how they've got their patches dialed in.  Start talking about the AF at about 4:30.  They still record with tube amps.

dindude

The AxeFx seems to suit bands who go for that rather opaque distorted tone, you know where it doesn't really matter what guitar you plug into it, could be a Marlin Sidewinder. Or a toaster (with EMGs fitted).

Any examples of lesser distorted, more dynamic players going for it live?

I guess I'm old school for guitar tones, when I saw Robben Ford (yes I know white-boy-blooze blah blah) a few weeks back, although I couldn't see any of his back line, I would have comfortably bet my life on him playing through a valve amp. You just can't replicate that visceral sound of a valve amp through modelling.

guitarfishbay

Pete Thorn used/uses them for touring/fly gigs. I don't really follow blues to know if anyone is using anything digital. Joe Bonamassa uses Palmer speaker load box/speaker sims to send to FOH though, the on stage amps are purely for his benefit. He did post a pic of him carrying an Axe FX out of a gig but I think it was just a joke.

Not all valve rigs sound good for toaster metal, I caught the end of Alien Ant Farm's set last week and their Marshall rig sounded weaker than the tone the POD guitarist got, and he had no amps on stage (that were on, there was a Recto halfstack which was off) so presumably was using digital. Hoobastank sounded best and used a Dual Rec half stack, but the bassist and kick drum tones were better mixed than the rest of the night so that helped, plus I was directly in line of the 4x12 so probably heard some stage guitar.

guitarfishbay

Actually my favourite sounding guitar all night was a single P90 Les Paul junior into the red channel on the Recto, really crunchy.

Cirrus

dindude;631101" said:

The AxeFx seems to suit bands who go for that rather opaque distorted tone, you know where it doesn't really matter what guitar you plug into it, could be a Marlin Sidewinder. Or a toaster (with EMGs fitted).

Any examples of lesser distorted, more dynamic players going for it live?

The Edge has started using them live. And for all the cliches about his sound being drenched in effects, the sound of a pushed AC30 is very much a part of it. I'd post some links to recent TV appearances but the downside is you'd be compelled to listen to a U2 song.