Why are guitarists obsessed with modes?

bingefeller

The best lesson I ever heard was a Pat Metheny lesson when he said that he could hear pretty much any note over any chord apart from a major 7 over a dominant chord. 

Phil_aka_Pip

DrJazzTap said:

As for Mixolydian, nothing really springs to mind for me. Ionian and Aeolian goes without saying.

You don't listen to blues  then?

EricTheWeary

I had YouTube open earlier and on What To Watch there was a how to play like Chuck Berry clip. I was vaguely interested and put it on. Within 30 seconds he was talking about the mixolydian mode.
Whilst I suspect Chuck didn't think in those terms it did seem to be an example of what @jpfamps was talking about in the OP and backing up my own point on this.
You play these types of songs in this mode and this is the pattern for that mode so if you play that pattern you can play more songs like this.

Jalapeno

bingefeller said:

The best lesson I ever heard was a Pat Metheny lesson when he said that he could hear pretty much any note over any chord apart from a major 7 over a dominant chord. 

Jimmy Bruno does a demo of playing the Maj7 note over a Dominant chord (as a passing note on the off beat) and it fits in perfectly.  It's just not a note to loiter on, but does fit.

bingefeller

Jalapeno said:

bingefeller said:

The best lesson I ever heard was a Pat Metheny lesson when he said that he could hear pretty much any note over any chord apart from a major 7 over a dominant chord. 

Jimmy Bruno does a demo of playing the Maj7 note over a Dominant chord (as a passing note on the off beat) and it fits in perfectly.  It's just not a note to loiter on, but does fit.

I'm sure Metheny uses that note too somewhere in his playing.  To be honest, with Metheny, I'm certain he can just hear the notes simultaneously as he's playing them.  He doesn't think in scales so much, but in 3rds, 5ths and 7ths and then adds in the gaps. 

jpfamps

EricTheWeary said:

I had YouTube open earlier and on What To Watch there was a how to play like Chuck Berry clip. I was vaguely interested and put it on. Within 30 seconds he was talking about the mixolydian mode.
Whilst I suspect Chuck didn't think in those terms it did seem to be an example of what @jpfamps was talking about in the OP and backing up my own point on this.
You play these types of songs in this mode and this is the pattern for that mode so if you play that pattern you can play more songs like this.

In my opinion blues / rock and roll songs aren't modal.

Yes you are playing notes from the mixolydian scale over say the I chord, but you will be play notes from a different scale over the IV and V chord.

In think as pointed out above, explaining that you are using the mixolydian mode over the I chord is any easy way to explain this to a guitarist, rather than saying you are using the major scale and flattening the 7th.

GuyBoden

Lack of knowledge is probably the guitarist's dilemma,  but I agree that most music can be analysed as being in a mode or multiple modes, even Western harmony with it's emphasis on harmonic progression and cadences etc could be analysed as each chord being a separate mode.

Check:
Arnold Schoenberg Structural Functions of Harmony.
The Lydian Chromatic System of Organization,
Chord Scale theory (Berklee College).

Start with these:
Berklee Harmony 1
Berklee Harmony 2
Berklee Harmony 3
Berklee Harmony 4

MatthewShreddery

One explanation may simply be that most guitarists jump straight into improvisation and improvisational styles, whereas classical musicians learn to read and play written, non-improvisational music.

Therefore most guitarists in this sense become fascinated with scales and modes etc as they are one of the major ingredients to improvisation. Nothing wrong with that.

Most good improvisers know their modes and all that stuff, regardless of which instrument they play.

Jalapeno

bingefeller said:

Jalapeno said:

bingefeller said:

The best lesson I ever heard was a Pat Metheny lesson when he said that he could hear pretty much any note over any chord apart from a major 7 over a dominant chord. 

Jimmy Bruno does a demo of playing the Maj7 note over a Dominant chord (as a passing note on the off beat) and it fits in perfectly.  It's just not a note to loiter on, but does fit.

I'm sure Metheny uses that note too somewhere in his playing.  To be honest, with Metheny, I'm certain he can just hear the notes simultaneously as he's playing them.  He doesn't think in scales so much, but in 3rds, 5ths and 7ths and then adds in the gaps. 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't even think - I've heard Howard Alden, Sheryl Bailey, and a bunch of other great jazzers say that they don't - they just hear it and play it.

monquixote

Jalapeno said:

bingefeller said:

I'm sure Metheny uses that note too somewhere in his playing.  To be honest, with Metheny, I'm certain he can just hear the notes simultaneously as he's playing them.  He doesn't think in scales so much, but in 3rds, 5ths and 7ths and then adds in the gaps. 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't even think - I've heard Howard Alden, Sheryl Bailey, and a bunch of other great jazzers say that they don't - they just hear it and play it.

I think that's the mistake non schooled players make about high level musicians they assume they are thinking about the theory while playing. Theory is just a tool for learning and communicating, if you are still thinking about the theory you haven't learn't it properly yet. 

viz

Yes, not to say that they're dismissing it, more that it's 2nd nature.

Philly_Q

Sorry, I have nothing useful to say here but every time I'm on the Home page this thread's partial title catches my eye and I think it says

"Why are guitarists obese?"

richardhomer

^ I'm less obese than I used to be and I might know a fair few modes - that said, outside of major, minor, Dorian and Harmonic Minor, I would probably consider them as passing tones, or targeted chord tones, rather than part of a recognised pattern, or scale.

I try to 'understand' things I stumble across in terms of theory - but actually I can live with just enjoying how it sounds.

viz

richardhomer said:

^ I'm less obese than I used to be and I might know a fair few modes......

Now it's only your tone that's phat.

bingefeller

I just think that worrying too much about modes takes away from the enjoyment of playing.   Like some people are thinking about modes and what notes to play so much that their playing sounds like they are just running through scales and arpeggios all the time.  

In the September 1992 issue of Guitar Player, Metheny was  interviewed by Mick Goodrick, and Metheny said this:

"At an Italian seminar last year, students almost rioted because practically everything I talked about conceptual - they wanted hardcore information. But I don't think in terms of substitutions and what scale fits what chord."

Sambostar

I think the ultimate Holy Grail that everyone is searching for is self expression whilst also covering the changing chords tones.  I think modes are a false prophet to some extent, in that they make you believe that somehow, by knowing them, you too can capture some of the essence of the best Jazz and Hairmetal guitar players about.

In reality, whilst they may open your eyes up to the tones, they really only give you a 10% lift.  The rest is practice, ear and feel and personal imagination.  Ear mostly.  I'm still struggling to play chords tones. I still struggle with a A-D-E twelve bar blues when I stick to and read the manual.  I just don't get it, but then I am not a great guitar player and more rely on whether the amp sounds good or not at the time for inspiration.

I was never very good at music in school and gave it up as early as I could, but I remember the music teacher loved music. He used a much more abstract approach, almost like how you would describe food on your palette to create sounds.  I think thinking that way is more useful than learning modes and such.  Like this sounds like snowflakes or falling out of a fire escape or being burned by the sun or whatever.  I suppose music being another language, you have to learn some basics, but the best poets think outside of the box with their use of vocabulary. They certainly don't inspire and create a vision in your mind by sticking to rhymes and conventional prose and descriptions.

koneguitarist

My problem with all of this is, I don't actually know what I am playing, as I am only thinking of my root and some riffs that I use, someone said I seem to play in major scales, whilst other local guys play in minor scales.

So if anyone looks at one of my solo's tell me what I am doing! 

viz

@ koneguitarist let's have a clip then with lots of soloing

koneguitarist

@viz Gives you an idea of what I do, one of my four solos, (1 actually done four ways! Cean and dirty, fast and slow! )  starts about 3:10 in.

stickyfiddle

To be honest I have no idea what I play in terms of modes - i just think of what melody I want to play in my head and it comes out of my fingers. I'm not so good on stuff outside the standard blues/rock styles, but I also don't listen to that sort of stuff, so it's not surprising that my imagination doesn't come up with it as something I want to play.