Recording to cassette tape and then back to PC

frank1985

Does anyone have any experience recording from their DAW to a cassette tape, then back into the DAW? Have you achieved good results?

This is an experiment I'm hoping will add a new dimension to my ambient tracks, but I can't seem to find much information on it. I've considered reel to reel, but it appears to be a lot more expensive. 

How would I go about doing this using the Eleven Rack as my interface? I assume I'd need a stereo RCA to TRS cable to record from Tape to DAW via the line inputs....but how do I actually record to tape? Stereo XLR to RCA via the 'Main Output'?

http://guitarmag.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Eleven_Rack_Rear.jpg

ecc83

Just reading the manual it seems the 11 Rack has just two outputs. XLR and jack,  "amp" outs left and right. The latter would seem the more convenient as you would not need to disturb the monitor circuit but the level of the jacks is only specified as "instrument level" which might not be high enough to drive a cassette machine which generally need around -10dBV or some 360millivolts. If "instrument" means guitar levels it could be only -40dBV, 10mV.

Input back from recorder is less of a problem and could go into the rear line inputs. The there might be a simpler way to do this via the FX loop  but I don't have a Rack handy!

Maybe some one here has one or pop over to www.soundonsound.com

Someone there is SURE to know!  B.B.BUT! Do not for one moment imagine you are going to get some sort of "warm, retro, Beatles R&R" sound from a cassette machine! And probably not from open reel.

Dave

Fretwired

Or just use a tape plugin in your DAW.

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ferox/

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/

There are loads of them that add compression, wow and flutter and lo-fi ..

steamabacus

Fretwired said:

Or just use a tape plugin in your DAW.

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ferox/

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/

There are loads of them that add compression, wow and flutter and lo-fi ..

I'd echo this. Compact cassette is a pretty poor medium really, I think you'll just end up with too much hiss.

Now, if you had a well-serviced 2" stereo tape machine, that might be a different matter......

frank1985

Fretwired said:

Or just use a tape plugin in your DAW.

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ferox/

http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/

There are loads of them that add compression, wow and flutter and lo-fi ..

Actually, that would save so much hassle. I might consider kramer master tape as I remember seeing a comparison vid between a recording created on tape, and another one digitally enhanced with the KMT plugin. I couldn't really tell the difference between the two...

spark240

What DAW software are you using ? Most come with some form of tape plug in or saturation plugin?

guitarfishbay

The slate virtual tape machine is also very good but requires an iLok key.

Heartfeltdawn

U-He Satin. No iLok needed, got mine secondhand from the usual thread at KVR, and it's cracking. 

frank1985

Ok I know I said I'd consider plugins because they're less of a hassle, but I'm really interested in going the hardware route. Someone mentioned poor sound quality and hiss - but to be honest, this lo fidelity production feature is what I'm after. I think it'll be a really cool experiment. 

rpr

The Go Team (IIRC) recorded a recent album in digital, then bounced it on to a domestic cassette machine and back again to give it that analog lo-fi squash.

In the Eighties, between the use of tape and the advent of DAT, Albums were mastered onto VHS video tape. Sound quality was pretty close to CD, but warmer. There is a way to do this using a Nicam VCR machine-go for peanuts in charity shops if you can find one- and suitable adapter. There is a special way of wiring it up that isn't obvious-it doesn't use the Audio In for instance. I did have instructions on how to do it, but may have binned them during a clear out. I can check if you're interested.

Also this may sound daft, but could you not just use the headphone socket and a jack to two phono connector /lead? It should be possible to monitor it from the tape machine.

thermionic

Blimey, I remember being in a studio that mastered to a VHS. I remember thinking at the time that it made sense, as the tape was quite wide.

I've thought about doing this myself, as I still have my trusty Tascam Portastudio. It runs on 2x speed, and I could possibly double up tracks (L to 1 & 2, R to 3 & 4) which would give me effectively 4 times better quality than an ordinary cassette deck.

frank1985

rpr said:

The Go Team (IIRC) recorded a recent album in digital, then bounced it on to a domestic cassette machine and back again to give it that analog lo-fi squash.

In the Eighties, between the use of tape and the advent of DAT, Albums were mastered onto VHS video tape. Sound quality was pretty close to CD, but warmer. There is a way to do this using a Nicam VCR machine-go for peanuts in charity shops if you can find one- and suitable adapter. There is a special way of wiring it up that isn't obvious-it doesn't use the Audio In for instance. I did have instructions on how to do it, but may have binned them during a clear out. I can check if you're interested.

Also this may sound daft, but could you not just use the headphone socket and a jack to two phono connector /lead? It should be possible to monitor it from the tape machine.

Never thought of using the headphone jack for monitoring...seems obvious now I think of it. I assumed I'd need a proper interface. It's likely i'll go the cassette route but the VCR method intrigues me also, so feel free to share these special wiring instructions you speak of. In fact I may have an old VCR lying about in the attic...am I limited to a Nicam and certain other brands or will this work with any VCR?

rpr

Never thought of using the headphone jack for monitoring...seems obvious now I think of it. I assumed I'd need a proper interface. It's likely i'll go the cassette route but the VCR method intrigues me also, so feel free to share these special wiring instructions you speak of. In fact I may have an old VCR lying about in the attic...am I limited to a Nicam and certain other brands or will this work with any VCR?

Nicam isn't a brand of VCR- it's a system of stereo reproduction developed for the broadcasting industry, that VCr makers adopted for their stereo VCRs- if it says VCR on your machine it's stereo, if not probably mono. Which shouldn't be discounted  If you consider a lot of classic recordings including The Beatles were mono.

I red about the wiring method in an old magazine article-which probably fell victim of a recent loft clearance. I sometimes take cuttings of anything that may of use to me, so I'll have a look. There's bound to be stuff on the net about it- Google 'Mastering audio onto VCR' and see where it leads.

I don't know about your system, but if you think laterally, there's usually a way of connecting stuff together one way or another.

I have recorded direct onto cassette,then took a headphone/line out of the tape machine into the mic input of a PC-basically using the computers own sound-card- to convert to digital. Sounded surprisingly OK in the context of the material. 

Nerine

Use a plugin. Seriously.

Don't bother with the unnecessary conversions and crap cassette quality.

There's a difference between lofi/vibey and plain shit.

frank1985

Nerine said:

Use a plugin. Seriously.

Don't bother with the unnecessary conversions and crap cassette quality.

There's a difference between lofi/vibey and plain shit.

 I've already bought myself a 70s tape deck off ebay, and it only cost a few quid (always set a reserve price!) so I have nothing to lose by trying it out. Also, I'm working with ambient music where there are no rules and 'plain shit' might actually be the preferable outcome.

Most of the lo fi goodness will come from my El Capistan anyway... the tape deck is just for added warmth and a further degradation of the audio, which may or may not be blended in with the original digital recording. 

How about I post my results here?