Folks who record guitars with mics

Cirrus

I've always positioned mics off axis when recording guitar speakers - usually listening for the best sound with isolated headphones while moving the mic about the speaker and typically it ends up halfway between the centre and the edge of the cone, pointing towards the dustcap.

But last week I tried an AT4050 bang on the centre of the speaker, and f*ck me, it sounds pretty good. I always just assumed it'd be too bright/ harsh to work, but that's not what's happening. It IS quite bright, but it's not an overpowering brightness. It's just solid, clear, and good sounding. Then I added a '57 in the usual off axis position just to add some extra grindy smushy '57 tone to the sound and the combination basically sounded like the amp in the room.

I remember reading something on a recording forum from a record producer/ recordist where he pointed out in a discussion about phase issues that even a single mic on a single speaker can be out of phase, since the speaker isn't a point source - the sound wave travels through the cone and the sound coming off one side of the speaker will hit that one mic at a different time to the same sound coming off another part of it. If the mic is bang on the centre, I guess that doesn't happen which might account for the solid sound.

Maybe my ears have finally become messed up, I don't know. Anyone else ever record guitar with a mic dead centre?

PolarityMan

Nope always off axis and usually quite far back, like maybe 6 inches off the grill.

My mic'ing technique is not the best for guitars though but that seemed to me to capture a pretty faithful reproduction of the guitar sound. With the amount of distortion we use, plus the fact that I have neo speakers putting stuff right up against the grill can get pretty abrasive.

ecc83

IMHO any talk of "phase" issues with the speaker/mic setup are largely bllx.

Even very well designed and constructed "hi fi" cones do not vibrate as perfect pistons and a guitar speaker cone is not even remotely pistonic!

This means that there is no way that anyone can predict which part of the cone is moving in phase with any other part.

I would say that if upfront  and centre works in this instance it is just serendipity, the next speaker down the pike will behave differently aragin!

Dave.

Danny1969

I think it goes to show it's always worth experimenting with mic's and position even if you do have a go to tried and tested method ...  which for me is generally off axis - between cone and edge and generally a 57 or a 906. Other things are worth trying as every speaker is different 

The trouble is the bands I record rarely want to take the time to get things right .... they generally want to get tracking as quick as possible so most of 2020's output is the above tried and tested method. Getting the overheads in phase and the kit tuned is about the most time we ever get before we need to get cracking

Cirrus

And that is why @Danny1969 you run a successful commercial enterprise and I don't.

juanzuoza

I have a small studio in Esquel, Patagonia Argentina. I've been recording for 20 years and i¨ve found there´s a great distance between what many theorists say and what you can get in real life through practise. I never minded about the exact position of the mic in terms of pointing it at the centre or not: Just put it wherever you want, record a litlle piece of music, and listen to it. If you like it, go ahead, if not, just change it. I believe that it is not easy or usual to get in trouble with phase. Of course, you'll get a different EQ and gain according to the posittion of the mic, but nothing you can´t handle while editing or mixing for getting the tone you're looking for. All we must have in mind is that there´s not A way for doing things, you can try whatever you want and the only thing that matters is what you hear. Your ears must decide if this is convincing or not. Hughs!

Cirrus

Very true Hughs, wisdom awarded!

I think my philosophy for the most part is that phase "issues" are worried about too much on recording forums - they're only issues if they sound bad.

\m/

I have to admit I had a little look on Google at Esquel, you live in a beautiful part of the world!

octatonic

Danny1969 said:

I think it goes to show it's always worth experimenting with mic's and position even if you do have a go to tried and tested method ...  which for me is generally off axis - between cone and edge and generally a 57 or a 906. Other things are worth trying as every speaker is different 

The trouble is the bands I record rarely want to take the time to get things right .... they generally want to get tracking as quick as possible so most of 2020's output is the above tried and tested method. Getting the overheads in phase and the kit tuned is about the most time we ever get before we need to get cracking

+1 to everything.

Half an inch difference in mic position can make all the difference.

Drew_TNBD

I've learned what I like over the years, and since I mainly only record my band, it's not a problem. But if I was recording someone else, I'd try a few things.

digitalscream

At the budget end, I tend to use a condenser (AKG C1000S or SE 2000) and a dynamic (SM57 or Superlux PRA628), both on-axis but just off the edge of the dust cap, about 2" away from the cloth. Depending on the needs, I'll pick what works best for the track (whether that's one, the other or a blend of both).

Dead-centre always sounds too harsh to me, so I end up jumping through EQ hoops to make it sound like the edge of the cap anyway.

octatonic

Royer 121 is a nice mic to blend with a 57.

There are cheaper ribbon mics available that are worth considering as well.

The 906 gets used the most though.

Drew_TNBD

With guitar, it's much easier to take away high-end than it is to add. I'd rather get an excessively bright guitar tone and tame it in the mix, than get something dull that is just going to go incredibly fizzy once I EQ some brightness into it.

I usually aim for the edge of the cap, as close to the grill as I can get without getting huge woofy proximity effect - usually about an inch for an SM57. Tend to feel any further away and it becomes too distant.

Nerine

Depends on the room, cab, amp, mics, pres.

What works for one amp, won't necessarily work for another.

I usually mic on axis.

57's are always a great starting point though. And I often use two. One on the cap, one fairly towards the middle of the cone.
I get a greater average of what the speaker is actually doing that way.

With a scooped amp a 421 would probably work alright.

With a small, tinny amp, a 441 would probably work well.

I don't use condensers for guitar amps any more.

Used to use ELA M 250's, U67's, 47's, 87's etc.

I just prefer to use dynamics.

I feel condensers pick up too much other shite that I don't actually need.

Plus I can run amps harder.

It matters not if your room is shit, though. The room will also have an effect on close mic'd cabs.

Axe_meister

I always like to add a room Mike as well just for a little extra depth

Gadget

I'm experimenting with recording three mics at once - an SM57, MD509 and MD421. They are over a single V30 in an iso cab.

The approach I took was to assess each mic's positioning individually for the best sound, then lock it off once I'd got the perfect spot.

However, it occurred to me afterwards that getting each in its 'perfect' spot may not be the best approach.

That is, though it may seem daft in some respects, would I actually be best placing one or two of the mics where they don't sound at their best (ie: too dark or too bright) in order to get a broader spectrum of coverage?

Or then am I just replicating a fuller spectrum mic and losing the specific benefits my mics have for guitar recording?

Discuss... ;-)

Drew_TNBD

Put pink noise through the guitar power amp and out through the cab. Position one mic so it sounds like the kind of tone you want. Invert the phase of the 2nd mic, and position that where the sound you hear from the two mics is the most thinnest and emptiest sound possible. Then invert the phase again. Do the same with the third mic.

Hey presto... three perfectly in phase microphones.

Gadget

Thanks - I'll give it a try and report back.

BTW when I do the third mic, do I reference against the first mic (with the second mic off), or against both mics (in which case should they both be in phase) or against the second mic?

Gadget

Cirrus said:

I've always positioned mics off axis when recording guitar speakers - usually listening for the best sound with isolated headphones while moving the mic about the speaker and typically it ends up halfway between the centre and the edge of the cone, pointing towards the dustcap.

But last week I tried an AT4050 bang on the centre of the speaker, and f*ck me, it sounds pretty good. I always just assumed it'd be too bright/ harsh to work, but that's not what's happening. It IS quite bright, but it's not an overpowering brightness. It's just solid, clear, and good sounding. Then I added a '57 in the usual off axis position just to add some extra grindy smushy '57 tone to the sound and the combination basically sounded like the amp in the room.

I remember reading something on a recording forum from a record producer/ recordist where he pointed out in a discussion about phase issues that even a single mic on a single speaker can be out of phase, since the speaker isn't a point source - the sound wave travels through the cone and the sound coming off one side of the speaker will hit that one mic at a different time to the same sound coming off another part of it. If the mic is bang on the centre, I guess that doesn't happen which might account for the solid sound.

Maybe my ears have finally become messed up, I don't know. Anyone else ever record guitar with a mic dead centre?

I found my SM57 sounds best dead centre, so long as it isn't too close.

I tried off axis and was really surprised how horrible it was, when I compared it to recordings of the other positions.

Cirrus

Drew_fx;694759" said:

Put pink noise through the guitar power amp and out through the cab. ...

....Hey presto... three perfectly in phase microphones.

I've used this method quite a lot, it really does become a game of millimeters! I have to admit that quite often I stick to one mic, but chose it for the cab. I've got a few options and they've all been stuck on guitar at some stage - I'll break out the second one if I think the blend will give me something (never so I have "options" later! :ar! ). I think if I got up to three there'd have to be a really good reason for it. I guess if the room sound was really good I'd and I wanted roomy guitars I'd pop another distance mic up, but I rarely have the privelage of working in a room that genuinely adds something to the tone.