The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

Rocker;963686" said:

I thought Wales lacked the killer instinct today. Both sides rode their luck re offside. Fair result overall. Can someone explain why so much aimless kicking is part of the modern game. Why not abolish penalty kicked scores unless drop kicked from the mark? Few tries are scored these days. Kick penalties for line out position. And we will have a new maul interpretation next season. The ball must be held at the front of the maul and not at the back as now. We need more scores from open play...

The maul needs a complete overhaul-or the refs to officiate the laws-we haven't seen a legal maul for 15 years-why?

I don't know-I'd like to see straight feeds, straight line put throws with no lifting, and players in front of the ball carrier called off side in a maul...old fashioned I know, the laws are there but are ignored....the game is poorer for it.

Also off the feet at rucks penalised.

lloyd

I thought Murray or Roberts deserved motm personally

lloyd

tbm;963605" said:

Was driving back from a gig down the country so I missed a lot of the game, but I saw most of it.

Given the world cup Garces had I really thought he'd be better today. Earls was lucky, more often then not thats a yellow, but he didn't lift Willams beyond the horizontal. You could argue it both ways.

I think Ireland will be happier overall. Stander was a good as he threatened to be in a area I expected Wales to dominate, and Tommy O'Donnell was excellent too. I thought Wales protected the ball really well when building phases. Had Garces been pinging people earlier in the game? Because the Irish players seemed to not compete as much as you'd expect. 

They all looked ruined by the end of it. 

So are we all agreed that John Lacey was the best ref on show this weekend? (!!shudder!!)

Agree with most of that (Lacey...no!) Garves let a lot go-too much IMO-we were holding on in rucks and he let that go, perhaps it was to counter/ignore Irish hands off their feet I'm not sure. (Not saying it was all Ireland playing up at breakdown).

Irish choke tackles were ignored for me-should have had a few pens.

I think he just let everyone do what they wanted-wales see the off the feet/side entry from Ireland. Irish will see wales holding on. Who knows?

bobblehat

tbm said:

Was driving back from a gig down the country so I missed a lot of the game, but I saw most of it.

Is that possible?

tbm

bobblehat said:

tbm said:

Was driving back from a gig down the country so I missed a lot of the game, but I saw most of it.

Is that possible?

HA! Yeah, that doesn't read well does it? I saw the very end of the first half, and all of the second.

Gassage

Ireland / Wales Garces allowed a degree of protection of ruck ball, possibly too long, but was fair to both.

lloyd

Re-watching the Keith Earle's tip tackles (can't believe the second wasn't even penalised) I think he was very lucky to stay on the pitch. The officials missed a blatant high tackle on North too, not a yellow for me though. I'll come across biased, but I don't think the Priestland knock down was a yellow-I rarely do think they're card offences (see defence of Parisse's in Saturday's game) you can try to flick the ball up with one hand and catch it-if you miss you get penalised, if you catch it it's fine.

eSully

Looks like Paul O'Connells stint at Toulon will not happen. I hear he's retired due to injury this morning. Fantastic player.

eSully

lloyd said:

Re-watching the Keith Earle's tip tackles (can't believe the second wasn't even penalised) I think he was very lucky to stay on the pitch. 

Well, I disagree, I think Liam Williams jumped into the tackle and then twisted in the air to get out of it. Earls could have done better in getting him to ground safely but a penalty was a fair outcome for both sides (as the draw was). 

Anyhow time to move on, I think Wales Scotland will be the pick of the games this weekend. Looking forward to it

lloyd

eSully;965216" said:

lloyd said:

Re-watching the Keith Earle's tip tackles (can't believe the second wasn't even penalised) I think he was very lucky to stay on the pitch. 





Well, I disagree, I think Liam Williams jumped into the tackle and then twisted in the air to get out of it. Earls could have done better in getting him to ground safely but a penalty was a fair outcome for both sides (as the draw was). 

Anyhow time to move on, I think Wales Scotland will be the pick of the games this weekend. Looking forward to it

By the letter of the law the tackles Are red cards (law 10.4.j) be fair-Williams twisting is immaterial, as is "intent" or previous character. It's up to the tackler to ensure the players safety-not the tackled player.

As you say Earle's could have done better getting him to the ground safely-that he didn't means it's dangerous play and a straight red.

I wouldn't want to see red cards for those types of tackle but they are worthy of yellows-the player is lifted, legs go beyond 90 then he is dropped.

The second one is more clear cut but was missed by every official, as was the high shot on North, which is disappointing.

As you say a draw was deserved by both teams, both will feel they could/should have won too.

eSully

lloyd said:

By the letter of the law the tackles Are red cards (law 10.4.j) be fair-Williams twisting is immaterial, as is "intent" or previous character. It's up to the tackler to ensure the players safety-not the tackled player.

As you say Earle's could have done better getting him to the ground safely-that he didn't means it's dangerous play and a straight red.

Interesting, I checked out the law you referred to and would suggest the wording below actually does not support your argument. He didn't lift the player off the ground nor did he drive him into the ground. While looking it up I see at least one instance of cards have been rescinded on appeal when it's judged the tacklers technique wasn't responsible for the player going to ground. example. I don't recall hearing Williams or Gatland making a big deal of it after the game but I may have missed it.

10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground first is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Anyway, I doubt this has changed your mind, we'll agree to disagree and move on, maybe I'm biased too but I don't think it deserved a card. I think Wales have a lot of improving to do, history is on their side on that point though, you tend to improve through the tournament. How do you call the Scotland game?

lloyd

eSully said:

lloyd said:

By the letter of the law the tackles Are red cards (law 10.4.j) be fair-Williams twisting is immaterial, as is "intent" or previous character. It's up to the tackler to ensure the players safety-not the tackled player.

As you say Earle's could have done better getting him to the ground safely-that he didn't means it's dangerous play and a straight red.

Interesting, I checked out the law you referred to and would suggest the wording below actually does not support your argument. He didn't lift the player off the ground nor did he drive him into the ground. While looking it up I see at least one instance of cards have been rescinded on appeal when it's judged the tacklers technique wasn't responsible for the player going to ground. example. I don't recall hearing Williams or Gatland making a big deal of it after the game but I may have missed it.

10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground first is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Anyway, I doubt this has changed your mind, we'll agree to disagree and move on, maybe I'm biased too but I don't think it deserved a card. I think Wales have a lot of improving to do, history is on their side on that point though, you tend to improve through the tournament. How do you call the Scotland game?

Re the law I cited, dropping a player is enough you don't have to drive them to the floor, I think theses days refs tend to yellow people being dropped, if you drive them to the floor you see red. Although B Davies escaped a red in Ireland a few years ago for that I think the first is down to interpretation and green will say nothing wrong red will say there is....I'm not sure how material Williams wriggling is, I don't think he jumps into the tackle personally, what does it for me is that Earls drops him when he's high up and does so to to his upper body-Williams blocks his fall with his arms. For me that's reckless to safety and dangerous play, but if not given I can understand why not: https://i.gyazo.com/7fe84a7428335bf8bf89951d727efcca.gif The second is a clear tip/drive to the ground and not even spotted, which is strange-this one is a clear cut penalty and deserving of a card IMO you could use the footage to teach somebody what a tip tackle is-he's lifted (definitely no jump into the tackle or wriggle) turned in the air and driven into the floor onto his shoulder/upper body: https://i.gyazo.com/1e3fa9eb2501796141df1bd3c896d3be.gif Not sure even the greenest amongst us can argue that one. Here's the North high tackle for reference, also not seen, this is a definite penalty for me, nothing else: https://i.gyazo.com/6cba349d068fe1997802f10cfcc5ef2d.gif Whether this makes a difference? I'm not sure, you can probably throw a load of infringements by Wales that stopped tries/cynical etc but the second two for me it's strange how nobody saw them and are dangerous play-which needs to be punished. Nothing has been made of them by the management and players which I think is right-it's not football-fans should moan but not the players. FWIW I don't think there was any malice involved (which doesn't change the sanction) the game was brutal and they overstepped the aggression in these examples. I think everyone will improve week by week-they've had 7 training sessions together so rustiness is bound to be there.

fretmeister

Paul O'Connell retires through injury

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35530075

Poor guy. Just got his retirement gig too.

lloyd

As for the Scotland game, I would
expect us to put a big score on them, they are garbage. They've no attack at all (less than us) no ball carriers, and their defence isn't great.

I feel for the fans, they've very little to cheer about. Hogg is quite good I guess, I don't think he'd trouble the Lions test team though.

We need to improve of course and no Biggar but Wales are streets ahead of Scotland in terms of players. We're at home too.

I think Ireland will beat France.

eSully

Christ, animated gifs and everything, you came to this thread prepared . I watched the match live and hadn't seen Scrum V or replays. Yea, that angle looks worse than the others I've seen but then everything looks worse slowed down, I definitely thought from the opposite angle it looked like Williams jumped into it but you're right. It doesn't look good there, I assume Garces only saw the first angle as that could well have been a yellow. I don't think the Tom James tackle is that bad, lifts his leg and puts him on the ground. That would be an extremely harsh yellow. Paynes high tackle on North, well, there's no arguing with that is there.

lloyd

Haha no I'm just a nerd so I re watch the game and then look for the gigs online....I need to get out more!

I suppose with how you see the second, as all things in rugby it's down to interpretation-most importantly the refs-so that's that I suppose.

What id like to see is a bit more consistency. With these things-it's all over the place, some refs would get the cards out and others not, which is an issue.

While I said the lack of criticism of the ref is right as this isn't football I feel that the refs are given too much respect (right word) the North high tackle hasn't been mentioned at all in the press, Garces perhaps has Charteris in the way, but the touch judge has no excuse, how he doesn't see that I dont know-it came at the end of some decent possession in Itelands half and could well have given us a platform deep in your 22 or even a shot at 3 points...which in this game could have made all the difference....

eSully

lloyd said:

Haha no I'm just a nerd so I re watch the game and then look for the gigs online....I need to get out more!

Be honest, you had those gifs primed and ready for the first Irish fan to pop their head above the parapet

lloyd said:

The North high tackle hasn't been mentioned at all in the press, Garces perhaps has Charteris in the way, but the touch judge has no excuse, how he doesn't see that I dont know-it came at the end of some decent possession in Itelands half and could well have given us a platform deep in your 22 or even a shot at 3 points...which in this game could have made all the difference....

In general I think as long as the ref is consistently rubbish with both teams it's just one of the nuances of rugby you've got to accept. The laws will be interpretted differently, teams have to play the ref and those screw up's and talking points as frustrating as they are almost make rugby more interesting (that one might be controversial), but with the greatest green bias in the world there's no way I can disagree with you. Why did the touch judge chicken out of calling that high tackle, clear line of sight and no more than 3 metres away from it. 

lloyd

Haha not at all, I've watched them a few times and that's what's made my mind up-I wanted to show you them as you only defended the first one-I assumed you'd not seen them again since the match.

I always miss things (especially our infringing!) during a game so like to get a second look after the game-I'm terrible during it....I might have been calling for red cards etc

The stuff on the deck and scrum will always be contentious-like you say you need to play the ref (something Wales are bad at IMO) on the day and get away with what you can-every team does this, bar none.

Missing the high shot on North I suppose you have to chalk up to an error and I assume the refs body have marked them down for it? Frustrating at the time even if they do even themselves out eventually. It was so blatant at the time to me and I'd had a few beers.

While these things continue to happen I'd like to see a system like tennis/American football/cricket where coaches or captain can flag an incident for review (for dangerous hits, off the ball cheap shots, neck rolls etc not offsides and whatever).

You could have somebody who's sole job is to review the incident while the game carries on with no break-if it's an infringement go back to it, if not carry on. Teams could have 1 per half and lose it if they get it wrong.

Rocker

On what TV channel did you guys in the UK watch the match?  It was not on the BBC or at least any of the BBCs that are broadcast through the Irish SKY system.  I generally prefer watching Ireland games via the BBC and hearing the BBC commentary.  And how do you cut and show bits of the broadcast as shown above by @lloyd?

To retain some level of balance it is important to point out that a few of the Welsh tackles on Ireland players were on the "high" side.  And what is a player to do when an opponent jumps for the ball and the player arrives when the jumping opponent is in mid air?  These incidents are generally not as clear-cut or black/white as they appear. [Speaking as someone who never played rugby and was poor at ball games in general].  And slow motion replays always makes things seem worse than they were.

crunchman

The Ireland-Wales game was on ITV.

BBC have been cutting back on their sports because of the cost of the rights.  There seems to be some kind of sharing deal with ITV. 

ITV commentary is rubbish.  Hopefully they will improve as they do it more.  Not as bad as BT Sports football commentary though.  Michael Owen should never be let anywhere near a microphone.