The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

This is it isn't it? Rfu should have come out and banned him immediately, said it was out of order. Lee says it's ok, apology accepted but it was heard on to by millions, you just can't do that. Gatland and Jones are a pair of dinosaurs on the issue, imagine this was football and someone used the N word.....makes rugby look amateurish and arcane.

lloyd

The elbow was just a prop being a prop, nothing in it, a yellow if it's spotted these days I'm sure.

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

I know, but as far as I am aware it doesn't specify what the penalty should be .. I think if Marler comes out and apologises to the cameras then that should be fine. Nothing happens when the boys from Oz have a go at the Poms which is where I think Gatland was coming from ...

lloyd

Fretwired said:

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

I know, but as far as I am aware it doesn't specify what the penalty should be .. I think if Marler comes out and apologises to the cameras then that should be fine. Nothing happens when the boys from Oz have a go at the Poms which is where I think Gatland was coming from ...

Gatlands come out and retracted that, probably because it was stupid and insensitive. In the eyes of the law calling Marler gypsy boy is as bad as calling Faletau a nigger. To travellers it's just as offensive so I think Marler will rightly have the book thrown at him and I reckon Eddie Jones and Gatland should reeducate themselves on the subject, it's not 1976 anymore and shit like this isn't acceptable, despite what they or you think I'm afraid. Would it be fine if Lee called Itoje a nigger and said sorry

fretmeister

The penalty should be the same as the use of the n word, otherwise it creates a ranking system for races / ethnic backgrounds and renders one group less important than another. That cannot be allowed to happen.

Fretwired

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

I know, but as far as I am aware it doesn't specify what the penalty should be .. I think if Marler comes out and apologises to the cameras then that should be fine. Nothing happens when the boys from Oz have a go at the Poms which is where I think Gatland was coming from ...

Gatlands come out and retracted that, probably because it was stupid and insensitive. In the eyes of the law calling Marler gypsy boy is as bad as calling Faletau a nigger. To travellers it's just as offensive so I think Marler will rightly have the book thrown at him and I reckon Eddie Jones and Gatland should reeducate themselves on the subject, it's not 1976 anymore and shit like this isn't acceptable, despite what they or you think I'm afraid. Would it be fine if Lee called Itoje a nigger and said sorry

I disagree. People make mistakes. I agree it's unacceptable, but the world's gone mad when the over zealous PC mentality come out with pitch forks and burning stakes. It would be better for rugby if Marler was made to apologise in public and state he was wrong - it would help educate younger players and would take the heat out of the situation. He'd also look like a complete twat which would be punishment enough. Banning him will do nothing to change people's attitudes and if anything may be counter productive. They're rugby players - it's a physical contact sport not ballet dancing.

koneguitarist

So striking a player with elbow to face is a yellow card offence? Really, no wonder some teams wonder about citing commissioners, 

lloyd

Fretwired said:

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

I know, but as far as I am aware it doesn't specify what the penalty should be .. I think if Marler comes out and apologises to the cameras then that should be fine. Nothing happens when the boys from Oz have a go at the Poms which is where I think Gatland was coming from ...

Gatlands come out and retracted that, probably because it was stupid and insensitive. In the eyes of the law calling Marler gypsy boy is as bad as calling Faletau a nigger. To travellers it's just as offensive so I think Marler will rightly have the book thrown at him and I reckon Eddie Jones and Gatland should reeducate themselves on the subject, it's not 1976 anymore and shit like this isn't acceptable, despite what they or you think I'm afraid. Would it be fine if Lee called Itoje a nigger and said sorry

I disagree. People make mistakes. I agree it's unacceptable, but the world's gone mad when the over zealous PC mentality come out with pitch forks and burning stakes. It would be better for rugby if Marler was made to apologise in public and state he was wrong - it would help educate younger players and would take the heat out of the situation. He'd also look like a complete twat which would be punishment enough. Banning him will do nothing to change people's attitudes and if anything may be counter productive. They're rugby players - it's a physical contact sport not ballet dancing.

What's physicality got to do with racial abuse? He needs to be made an example of showing that this isn't acceptable, kids aren't stupid, they need to be shown there's repercussions. I ask again, would your attitude be different if Lee was black and was called a nigger? Would an apology suffice? Fuck no.

koneguitarist

@lloyd I think you are over reacting on this mate, there is racial abuse and there is some sledging, he was told to " get back to his caravan Gypsy boy", now I am no expert but I agree with @fretwired on this, to me this is no different to calling an Irishman paddy and telling him to go dig a ditch, Or Jock Or Taffy etc he didn't call him a gyppo or sheepshagger etc, it was fairly mild stuff and got the result he was after.

 Stupid, and he should be shown the error of his ways, I think he will cop a ban, but I would rather ban for the off the ball foul play, which has just been condoned! 

Fretwired

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

lloyd said:

Fretwired said:

fretmeister said:

Current Equality Act says it's the same.

I know, but as far as I am aware it doesn't specify what the penalty should be .. I think if Marler comes out and apologises to the cameras then that should be fine. Nothing happens when the boys from Oz have a go at the Poms which is where I think Gatland was coming from ...

Gatlands come out and retracted that, probably because it was stupid and insensitive. In the eyes of the law calling Marler gypsy boy is as bad as calling Faletau a nigger. To travellers it's just as offensive so I think Marler will rightly have the book thrown at him and I reckon Eddie Jones and Gatland should reeducate themselves on the subject, it's not 1976 anymore and shit like this isn't acceptable, despite what they or you think I'm afraid. Would it be fine if Lee called Itoje a nigger and said sorry

I disagree. People make mistakes. I agree it's unacceptable, but the world's gone mad when the over zealous PC mentality come out with pitch forks and burning stakes. It would be better for rugby if Marler was made to apologise in public and state he was wrong - it would help educate younger players and would take the heat out of the situation. He'd also look like a complete twat which would be punishment enough. Banning him will do nothing to change people's attitudes and if anything may be counter productive. They're rugby players - it's a physical contact sport not ballet dancing.

What's physicality got to do with racial abuse? He needs to be made an example of showing that this isn't acceptable, kids aren't stupid, they need to be shown there's repercussions. I ask again, would your attitude be different if Lee was black and was called a nigger? Would an apology suffice? Fuck no.

Things get heated - I played rugby at a reasonable standard for ten years and I've seen team mates smack each other in the heat of the moment only to shake hands at the bar and move on.

There's no point in continuing the discussion - I agree it's bigitory - nobody is saying it isn't. Marler apologised at half-time and Lee says he accepted it. I just think there are other ways to deal with these things that usual fire storm that the press whips up.

 

UnclePsychosis

England international throwing elbows and racial slurs around.

England captain has served 52 weeks of bans.

Game for gentlemen, apparently. Hmm.

kjdowd

I think the Marler thing is a really tricky one. On the one hand, unacceptable behaviour and a nasty slur; on the other hand we are becoming a society of manufactured outrage and points scoring. Look at the no-platform nonsense going on in universities. Not quite the same thing, I know, but it is a perilous road to go down.
Maybe he should take a lead from Viz and do what they did when caught in a similar predicament...

lloyd

I think that behaviour on a rugby field should stay within the bounds of the law of the land, I also believe that while it is changing, rugby players are role models and their behaviour on the pitch should reflect that. I think what you're all missing is the fact that this kind of language is against the law. Marler in doing what he did is legally the same as calling a black guy a nigger. Whether you lot think it's any different is to miss the point and with all due respect totally irrelevant. The fact that Lee has accepted the apology is also irrelevant as it was said on television. @fretwired there is a sanction for this in the (rugby) law book think it's a 4 week ban, that's how it should be dealt with...ie according to the law book yes? Apologies should happen as well a s any sanctions meted out according to the law-players apologise for stamps, punches etc over Twitter despite landing a ban don't they? I played shit patch rugby for many years, punched, got punched, elbowed etc....things get heated, never called someone a nigger while playing, it's unacceptable. EDIT it's a 4 week ban.

lloyd

Fuck me, he's got away with the racism and an elbow to the face of a prone player....the game is fucked. Disgraceful. Got away with it as it was "heat of the moment" stuff, what a pile of shit, there's no defence for that in mitigation of any offence, they're making it up as they go along. Farcical.

kjdowd

If behaviour on a rugby field stayed within the bounds of the law of the land, then they would all be up for assault!

Sorry - a facile point - but context has a bearing here, particularly on the physical stuff.

The verbal issue is a more difficult one. Saying it is against the law is no guarantee of sanction, and I don't believe it equates necessarily to other racials slurs simply because there isn't a basic equivalence across what is a complicated cultural and historical issue. That said, the more I think about it the more I think that there should've been some sanction if only to make the point and to show that rugby won't tolerate that sort of nonsense.

lloyd

kjdowd said:

If behaviour on a rugby field stayed within the bounds of the law of the land, then they would all be up for assault!

Sorry - a facile point - but context has a bearing here, particularly on the physical stuff.

The verbal issue is a more difficult one. Saying it is against the law is no guarantee of sanction, and I don't believe it equates necessarily to other racials slurs simply because there isn't a basic equivalence across what is a complicated cultural and historical issue. That said, the more I think about it the more I think that there should've been some sanction if only to make the point and to show that rugby won't tolerate that sort of nonsense.

No it's voluntary to go on, you're allowed to hurt people who consent to it. Besides, there is a rugby law in the rugby law book which makes abuse such as this against rugby laws. It's a 4 week ban. What you think about it being equal to other slurs matters nothing as there is no difference in the eyes of the law. It's simple stuff really it is.

crunchman

He was completely out of order saying it, and there possibly should be a punishment but to equate it with using nigger is going too far.  Nigger is a poisonous word in any context.  Gypsy is not.  People innocently use the term Gypsy when talking about things like the old style horsedrawn Gypsy caravans.  If you google the word Gypsy the first thing that comes up is Gypsy The Musical.  You would never see "Nigger The Musical".

I see both sides of the argument.  @lloyd is right that it's unacceptable but @kjdowd is also right that we are becoming a society of manufactured outrage.

kjdowd

@lloyd. I think is it a bit more nuanced, but - on reflection - agree that some sort of sanction was appropriate. Surprised they let it go.

Fretwired

lloyd said:

Fuck me, he's got away with the racism and an elbow to the face of a prone player....the game is fucked. Disgraceful. Got away with it as it was "heat of the moment" stuff, what a pile of shit, there's no defence for that in mitigation of any offence, they're making it up as they go along. Farcical.

@lloyd .. I actually agree with the bigotry statement (no action), although I would have forced him to make a public apology to the traveller community. I think there is such a thing as the heat of the moment in a game of rugby.However,  I have no idea why he escaped the elbow which I would have thought warranted a ban and for which a heat of the moment defence would be inappropriate.

lloyd

Had Marler said "get back to your mud hut black boy" to Faletau I'm not sure we'd be having the same conversation about word nuances, which is the point really isn't it?

In the eyes of the law (and rugby laws) I'd say it's pretty a clear cut racial insult.

Whether it's "heat of the moment" or not @Fretwired there is no mitigation for that in the law book, so you're making laws up to suit your own feelings, which is wrong....why should a punch not be mitigated as it's heat of the moment but racism should be? I'll ask you again, would you think an apology sufficed if Lee called Itoje "black boy"?

@crunchman the word nigger is used by black people innocently on a daily basis but I take your point.