Achieving a "Closet Classic" finish

Tex Mexico

Before we start, let's all take a moment to acknowledge the opinions of those who think that cosmetic wear is only legitimate if you put it there yourself by accident while playing your shit cover of All Right Now in some backwater dive pub to three drunks and a fat dog.

Riiiight.

Now that's over with, I have decided that once my refin on my Tele body is complete, I fancy giving it a Closet Classic finish. That's Fender's CS Time Machine option where the idea is the guitar is fifty years old but has only been played rarely and mostly kept in the case, so has very minimal actual damage and wear, but it does have weather checking, natural discolouration of the finish and plastics, slight oxidation of the hardware, and an overall patina that suggests age in a subtle but unmistakable way.

I don't want big dings, chunks missing, sanded arm contours, exposed wood or any of that stuff. I like it fine, just not for this project.

I'm interested to know if anyone here has successfully reproduced such a finish, and if so what techniques they employed to do so. So far I know:

Weather checking: Freeze the neck and body for several hours and then quickly introduce it to a warm environment, repeat as needed. I hear this gives a much more authentic looking weather check, as it actually reproduces the conditions of checking, than using the old freeze-spray can upside-down thing, which I understand gives a more spiderweb kind of effect. I'm also told that wiping on a mild stain of some sort immediately after the cracks appear will accentuate the check pattern.

Oxidising metals: I've been told muriatic acid, but I hear that this can very quickly get to heavy relic territory and even damage some of the parts, so I was thinking of making a salt-and-vinegar solution, placing this in a dish and then sealing the dish into a tupperware container with the parts, then exposing to low heat to create fumes, and letting that do the work. I understand this might take longer, but I'm hoping that the more gradual oxidation will achieve an effect closer to the real thing.

Yellowing/discolouration: I'm wary of using a tinted lacquer spray, although I hear this is a commonly-employed method, as again I'd rather try to keep the effects as close as possible to the actual natural process. I'm not going to take my guitar to a tanning salon but I'm not against leaving it in a sunny window (for the eight minutes of the year we actually get sun in Preston). I'm thinking again mild abrasion and then the application and cleaning off of diluted stains might get me closer. I'm also a smoker, so I've been debating how realistic it would be to make a little hood and put the guitar under it with an ashtray full of lit cigarettes. I'm not exactly in love with that idea though because it's nasty.

Any other tips and tricks?

chrispy108

No ideas, but it sounds interesting, make sure you report back as to how it goes.

Your first sentance is a thing of beauty!

stonevibe

Smoke a lot of cheap cigars near it. 

It'll yellow a treat then.

Mind you it will also stick to high heaven as well... 

Tex Mexico

Tex Mexico said:

 I'm also a smoker, so I've been debating how realistic it would be to make a little hood and put the guitar under it with an ashtray full of lit cigarettes. I'm not exactly in love with that idea though because it's nasty.

stonevibe said:

Smoke a lot of cheap cigars near it. 

It'll yellow a treat then.

Mind you it will also stick to high heaven as well... 

It was a serious suggestion, as nitro will readily darken from the tar, but as we both said, it will get pretty nasty-smelling, and I'm not sure I'm prepared to have a guitar that smells of fag-ash. I personally don't entirely dislike the smell as I grew up with it, but some people are less fond of it.

Sassafras

Before we start, let's all take a moment to acknowledge the opinions of those who think that cosmetic wear is only legitimate if you put it there yourself by accident while playing your shit cover of All Right Now in some backwater dive pub to three drunks and a fat dog.

As one of those three drunks, I object to you calling my girlfriend 'a fat dog'.

streethawk

"Oxidising metals: I've been told muriatic acid, but I hear that this can very quickly get to heavy relic territory and even damage some of the parts, so I was thinking of making a salt-and-vinegar solution, placing this in a dish and then sealing the dish into a tupperware container with the parts, then exposing to low heat to create fumes, and letting that do the work. I understand this might take longer, but I'm hoping that the more gradual oxidation will achieve an effect closer to the real thing."

-----------

I think if you heat tupperwear enough to create vapour it will melt?

You can do it with a saucepan and suspend the parts over that - like steaming veg.

I prefer etchant solution as there are methods of applying it to fine tune the ageing effect.

I did a bridge for @stuagu recently that was uniformly aged by Faber, took it a bit further using the approach described above and think it worked out pretty well. Should've took side by side pics. doh.

Works for light ageing new parts too - though I prefer giving it quite an aged look and then taking the patina back with micromesh.

One issue with light ageing is that you still have the odd shiny spot - but that's probably more authentic than uniform ageing! Chrome parts (as often found on 50's tele's) is a whole different ball game because it doesn't dull, just corrodes and flakes. 

As for damaging moving parts: with tuners you need to be careful but I'm not too fussed with grub screws and the like: just scuff them back so that corrosion isn't fouling the thread and stick a dab of lubricant in. Here's some heavier aged tele knobs I did recently:

They work as normal. 

Tex Mexico

Sassafras said:

As one of those three drunks, I object to you calling my girlfriend 'a fat dog'.

"Big-boned", then.

Tex Mexico

streethawk said:

I think if you heat tupperwear enough to create vapour it will melt?

Nah, I've done it before. Just left it on a warm radiator. Doesn't take much at all for whatever moisture you put in there to vapourise into the air inside the tub. Think about how much steam you get when you take a shower, but that water's not hot enough to melt plastic.

The picture you've posted it a bit too much for what I have in mind, it looks like it's been corroded them polished back. I'm talking literally like a bit of darkening, a hint of greening, I think from what I've seen etchant or muriatic acid are too strong unless diluted heavily, in which case the acid content in vinegar is similar. Has anyone tried lemon juice?

streethawk

No rubbing back on that set. Just an illustration of what you can do with etchant. Not trying to talk you out of using vinegar etc - lots of folk use that method with great results. In fact that's exactly how they aged copper in the old days.

Greening is verdigris patina from copper/brass content, there's no magic way to very lightly age nickel plate to create such a patina and then not have it get heavier over time.

Have you got an image (pic) of the sort of ageing you're aiming to achieve?

Tex Mexico

That's pretty close. Maybe less rust on the bridge pickup screws. This particular guitar is actually a Closet Classic in shoreline gold, so barring the maple fretboard it's quite close to what I'm going for. This pic shows it quite well:



As you can see it's quite subtle compared to what most people think of as relicing, but that's what I'm going for. Not damaged, just really old. That's what the actual vintage Teles I've seen in person tend to look like.

streethawk

Yup. You can do that (and less) with etchant, it's just a destructive medium like anything else. 

Part of the effect is pre-scuffing the nickel finish before you attack it with vinegar/etchant/muriatic.

Less so on screws though, unless you want rust - which you don't.

Took another pic of three knobs, one new, the other two treated with etchant:

Now I'm not sure how far you can go with vinegar fumes, maybe if you left it in the tupperware for a week or two it would be heavily corroded - I dunno.

Point is that you shouldn't be put off by using muriatic or etchant for light ageing. It's fine.

Question is - what do Fender use??

SimonRF

Re: the muriatic acid, it can be used for subtle effects but do use it tentatively - it can continue to act after the pieces are removed from whatever container you're aging them in.

If you're aiming for a cracked finish then some super-thin coats of nitro won't hurt! Let it harden well before putting it through the freezer.

A spray on lacquer (our Light or Lightest Brown is a convincing aged effect) works well on the paint, and it's easier with a spray on finish to 'mask off' areas that you don't want discoloured, for example underneath plates where the ciggies don't reach so well.

Tex Mexico

Well, I've put my hardware into a tupperware box with a dish of malt vinegar and salt (relic fish and chips?) And put it on a south-facing windowsill. I have a few weeks before reassembly so I'll have loads of time to tweak or change the process, but from experience I reckon this will take at least several days to act, rather than hours or minutes. I'll post pictures of my progress.

Tex Mexico

RothkoAndFrost;725876" said:

Re: the muriatic acid, it can be used for subtle effects but do use it tentatively - it can continue to act after the pieces are removed from whatever container you're aging them in.

If you're aiming for a cracked finish then some super-thin coats of nitro won't hurt! Let it harden well before putting it through the freezer.

A spray on lacquer (our Light or Lightest Brown is a convincing aged effect) works well on the paint, and it's easier with a spray on finish to 'mask off' areas that you don't want discoloured, for example underneath plates where the ciggies don't reach so well.

Have you had people achieve good results with weather - checking your finishes? I'm going to go as thin as possible with the clear and give around three weeks before final cut & buff, do you think that will be enough time?

When you say your lightest brown, do you mean a tinted clear?

streethawk

Tex Mexico said:

Well, I've put my hardware into a tupperware box with a dish of malt vinegar and salt (relic fish and chips?) And put it on a south-facing windowsill. I have a few weeks before reassembly so I'll have loads of time to tweak or change the process, but from experience I reckon this will take at least several days to act, rather than hours or minutes. I'll post pictures of my progress.

Cool!

Is it new hardware?

What are you going to do about the plastics? I was thinking: Fender parchment plastics are a nice shade, scuff them up a bit and it could look pretty 'closet classic'.

I can post some comparison pics between white/aged white/parchment if you like the idea. 

Just remembered we're talking about a tele. 

>:D<

IvisonGuitars

Tex Mexico said:

RothkoAndFrost;725876" said:

Re: the muriatic acid, it can be used for subtle effects but do use it tentatively - it can continue to act after the pieces are removed from whatever container you're aging them in.

If you're aiming for a cracked finish then some super-thin coats of nitro won't hurt! Let it harden well before putting it through the freezer.

A spray on lacquer (our Light or Lightest Brown is a convincing aged effect) works well on the paint, and it's easier with a spray on finish to 'mask off' areas that you don't want discoloured, for example underneath plates where the ciggies don't reach so well.

Have you had people achieve good results with weather - checking your finishes? I'm going to go as thin as possible with the clear and give around three weeks before final cut & buff, do you think that will be enough time?

When you say your lightest brown, do you mean a tinted clear?

@Tex Mexico Here's a pic of a Junior project i'm just finishing, going for the similar finish to what you are doing, using the excellent @RothkoFrost lacquer:

My advice would be to put plenty of clear on so you've got a good thickness to crack. I have previously gone down the 'thin skin' route and found checking a lot harder to achieve.

MattFGBI

Get an air duster can, spray it upside down on the finish.  Don't snap your fingers off.....

SimonRF

Tex Mexico said:

Have you had people achieve good results with weather - checking your finishes? I'm going to go as thin as possible with the clear and give around three weeks before final cut & buff, do you think that will be enough time?

When you say your lightest brown, do you mean a tinted clear?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Mistreat it and you should be able to get the checking without too much effort - build up really thin coats, plenty of them, 3 weeks is ample wait time. Yes, tinted see-through lacquer for the discolouration.

@miserneil thanks Neil! 

Tex Mexico

Excellent, thanks for all the help guys.

Well, after about a day and a half I got the results I wanted with the nickel hardware. It's super subtle, mainly textural with some darkening here and there. I especially like the way the tuners have turned out, I actually spent quite a bit of time with steel wool getting most of the tarnish off so there's just a hint of it. I'll get some pics up soon.

However the control plate, the knobs, the neck plate and the ashtray bridge are all chrome-plated. I'm going to spend some time shaking them up in a box full of screws and various other sharp metal bits, but does anyone have any specific pointers from there? Have you found that that alone is good enough for a worn chrome look? I'm considering leaving it like that because I've seen a few vintage teles with chrome parts that look pretty shiny apart from a few micro-scratches. I don't mind the chrome being intact, I just don't want it to look as perfect and "factory-fresh" as it does now, if you get my meaning. Right now it looks like it was plated yesterday.

GuitarWorkz

I'm probably too late in mentioning this but Freon gas produces a lot better checking than either sticking the guitar in the freezer or using compressed air, it produces more est to west, rather than north to south checking, as in it is more authentic than the other two methods, north to south checking and spider web checking is a sign that it was forced, it is one of the ways people check to make sure guitars are authentic as in a proper 59 burst.  It's what the person who makes Joe B's and others replicas of the original 50's bursts they own do when they make replicas of their 50's LP's for them.

If you want a better explanation of the process look up the fake burst that Capsule Music in Toronto Canada almost sold - it was not Capsule Music's fault they where scammed, to Rush's Geddy Lee.

Here is a good thread that mentions the process and how it is done to achieve an authentic look:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/vintage-les-pauls/339121-clean-untouched-1960-burst-capsule-music-toronto.html

As well as here:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/clean-untouched-1960-les-paul-burst-at-capsule-music-toronto.1581539/

Though the mylespaul.com forums, especially their vintage section is full of information on how the people who build replicas do it, and some of them have actually been caught trying to pass of their replicas off as the real thing and nearly gotten away with it.

Tex Mexico

Call me an idiot, but I've just waded through twenty pages of people bitching at each other about a fake guitar and I'm still none the wiser about using freon to get weather checking. Do you have a link to something more specific?