Small amps through PA. Anything lost?

Wolfetone

Just got a Hughes & Kettner 18w valve combo as it was the sweetest sounding amp at the price that I had heard. I decided to go for a small amp as we have a Bose PA that is very faithful in its reproduction.

What's the wisdom out there for small amps through PA rather than big standalone jobbies?

BowynMadley

You can't beat a valve amp that's wound up nice and hot. But these days small amps are the only way of doing it. It's all down to the Mic and PA used imho. I saw vintage trouble once and their guitarists rig got lost in transport so he used the tweed champ he practiced with while on tour and Mic'd it up. It was awesome tone.

ICBM

Simple really - it's about tone not volume. If you prefer the sound of a small amp then you will get the same sound through the PA, if it's decent quality. If you prefer the sound of a big amp then you won't get that through the PA by mic'ing a small amp.

Consequently some people still prefer to use big amps even if they're going to put them through the PA as well. There is still an advantage to doing that because you generally get better balance and dispersion throughout the room if the amp is not having to do all the work from the stage. You certainly don't want to have to turn the amp up loud enough to fill the room if that messes up the onstage balance or it's too loud out front when you're directly in line with the amp. Equally and contrary to what some sound engineers think I don't see any point in turning the amp down too far and having to use the PA (and monitors, on stage) so you can actually hear it at all.

Danny1969

In terms of reproduction a PA doesn't actually have to be very good to faithfully reproduce a guitar, an electric guitar has almost nothing going on below 100hz or so and not much above 5K. You can make the sounds we love using a crap speaker designed for mid range reproduction..... that's what gives the sound without the fizz etc. 

You can feel the difference between playing through a big amp or small amp but you can't hear the difference once it's been processed and put through the PA, as most engineers will hi pass at 100hz anyway  ... so even if your big amp big speaker had some trouser flapping big end going on it would be removed anyway

I use a 5 watt amp through a large ish PA and if you swapped it over for a 100 watt and I had to tell the difference through listening alone ... not playing .... I probably couldn't 

slacker

IMHO the advantages of a small amp pa are that you can run the amp harder to get power amp distortion. It keeps stage volume down and keeps the sound person and or venue owner happy. I played in a very loud band with a 10w nmv 1x12 and was very happy with my sound. There were next to no cleans. 

I once played a funeral just me on an archtop and a keyboard player. She used a 500w Roland combo and I used a borrowed Twin. Both barely on and both spanky clean. 

The application always should drive what you use. I saw a band in a very small bar and the guitarist had a Marshall half stack and completely drowned out the band and PA. What was strange was that the PA was small, the bassist had a tiny combo and the drummer had an electric kit. I would have used my ZVex Nano all 0.5 watts. 

roberty

Only thing to watch, if it is a small PA you will be using speaker energy for the guitar that could otherwise be used for vocals. Same thing with the wedges. Not sure what your PA is like but 9 times out of 10 you'll be alright

koneguitarist

I use a 13w Excelsior through PA via Peavey EDI box, I can't tell if it's a small amp or big amp in the mix, not sure anyone else could either.

Last nights gig in a large Marquee the PA was supplied without engineer, a combination of JBL cabs, somewhere between 5-10k rig and a Allen Heath desk. I did the sound for band, and when I wanted guitar sound checked I got my singer to play some rhythm so I could hear it in mix, guitar sounded huge, as much down to PA cabs as EQ.

Always think small gig, big amp, big gig small amp! 

ICBM

Small gig, big amp. Big gig, bigger amp!

I think you can still tell through the PA, but I accept not everyone uses the kind of sound that shows it up - if you use a more compressed, overdriven all-mid type sound you won't hear it; it's the depth and dynamics on mid-light nearly-clean tones where it shows most - and the vast majority of the audience won't notice anyway.

Speakers and cab make a difference too, not just amp power - so if you DI it, there will be next to no difference.

You also hear it much more clearly in a power-trio type format - in a denser mix you probably don't even want that sort of sound, let alone miss it if you can't hear it. I've used small amps on purpose in large bands, they just sit in the mix better usually. It's all about context.

Gassage

Yes. All street cred is lost.

shaunm

To me a 20 watt amp can cover you at most gigs (assuming you don't play stadia).
I have always gigged an amp of that size though for the most part through a 4x10 cab and I always felt that I got a great sound. I always felt I had enough of a clean sound to get by in a rock/indie setting. In truth though I never played a gig without a PA to go through.

PolarityMan

If youv'e got those bose line arrays we borrowed a set once and even with vocals only through the PA it wasnt loud enough to keep up with our drummer, with guitars in as well there wouldnt be any hope.

koneguitarist

Not a fan of Bose at all. 

Trouble with big gig big amp, is your onstage sound interferes more when all is mic'd up, or if you don't mic up, your sound doesn't get the spread that it needs as valve amps tend to be like a beam.

Smaller amps tend to be more consistent gig to gig, and is not so dependant on size of venue, onstage we are same volume every gig, out front volume changes as per venue. 

Fretwired

Jeff Beck has gigged with a pair of 15 watt Fender Pro Juniors and a mate of mine gigged with a 20 watt Peavey valve amp in front of 1200 people on a regular basis - it can work very well so long as you have a quality PA. I can't comment on the Bose PA - why not experiment. It could work very well.

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

Trouble with big gig big amp, is your onstage sound interferes more when all is mic'd up, or if you don't mic up, your sound doesn't get the spread that it needs as valve amps tend to be like a beam. Smaller amps tend to be more consistent gig to gig, and is not so dependant on size of venue, onstage we are same volume every gig, out front volume changes as per venue. 

It's possible to play a big amp at exactly the same volume gig to gig as well, and at exactly the same volume as a small amp .

This is not really aimed at you because I know you know this, but it really frustrates me how so many people automatically assume that a big amp means more volume. It doesn't. I actually play at about the same volume no matter what amp I use - at about the volume I can get from a 10W amp, with a typical band. I just happen to prefer the sound I get from bigger amps running at that level than small ones - it's the headroom and dynamics I want, not the volume. Having more power does give you the capability to turn up as well, but generally it's not a good idea for exactly the reasons you said - it's still better to mic it.

The difference the stage size makes is why I prefer an even bigger amp for a big gig - I've found that even a 50W 1x12" can sound quite small and boxy on a big stage, even when mic'ed... but a 100W 2x12" or anything with a 4x12" doesn't.

Of course, if you can fit it on the stage you can still use the bigger amp at small gigs too .

Danny1969

This comes up all the time, I use a 5 watt amp mic'ed up and don't have a problem regardless of the size of the venue, but other people much prefer much bigger amps. Everyone is entitled to like what they like but you certainly can gig with tiny amps. I did the Gazette Estate awards at the Hilton Parklane which can take 1100 seated with my trusty HT5 

The Bose L1 model 2 system is great for acoustic gigs and we use one for mic;ing up AC30's at Shadows club but in a rockband context they are pointless in terms of bang for your buck .... being as you could buy 2 SRM450's and 2 18" Mackie bins for less money than an model 2 system. 

koneguitarist

@ICBM I don't think the issue is about volume of amp but mix, people generally don't put a big amp through PA on the bigger gigs, preferring the chance to turn their amp up.

If you have a Twin Reverb or Marshall stack and play with a fairly loud drummer, your onstage volume is higher , which will affect the out front sound, and the sound guys ability to sit you in the mix.

Now I appreciate not everyone with a big amp plays loud and not everyone with small amp plays quietly, but my amp which sounds perfectly loud enough on 95% of gigs for instance was not loud enough on this big stage in a marquee, I could have turned amp up but in fact just put a touch more through monitors to adjust for a larger more open stage so rest of band could hear me. My amp sounds best(to me ) on 4 when it gets past that it breaks up too much on chords yet can sound a little sterile below that volume. 

Horses for courses, but having a smaller amp means my sound is more consistent to me and band from gig to gig. 

The only thing that changes is acoustics of room, that's what the PA is for. 

ICBM

Agreed, apart from that to me, my sound is more consistent with a big amp - a small amp sounds smaller the larger the space it's in, whereas a big one sounds the same. Probably just down to the different sounds we like...

impmann

I've found that having a big amp at low volume *can* sound OK, but can also sound fizzy when used with fuzz/distortion etc, as the higher powered speakers aren't moving enough to filter out those high frequencies.

The only argument I can see for a big amp these days is headroom - if you use squeaky clean tones and crushing distortion the next, a big amp with shedloads of headroom is the only way you can reliably achieve it. 

In my experiences, when guitarists have lots of volume on tap they are forever tweaking the volume *up* on stage, and then everyone else has to keep turning up to be able to be heard. If you take the control away from the musicians and into the hands of a third party, assuming they know what they are doing, the sound will be more balanced. With good quality monitoring, and a flexible monitor mix facility any on stage deficiencies can be addressed by the engineer.

90% of the venues our band plays do not have the space for a 4x12 cab, plus the rest of the band. We invested heavily in a bloody good EV-based PA a while back, reduced the size of the backline and reduced on stage volumes. We've found we *all* have a better night, we have less problems with feedback and our FOH sound is much improved. We no longer battle over on stage volume - frankly our monitors have more power than the average guitar amp, so if you really want your sound to flap your trousers, you can... but unless you have an ego the size of Texas (if you did, you'd be out of our band) its not needed.

The final point is lunking gear about. Unless you have a roadie, you have to load and unload your gear. Frankly, playing in an energetic punk, ska and new wave band is tiring enough without lunking amps designed before the time of good PAs about. 

The bottom line is - it *might* work for you. It did for me and until a few years ago, I wouldn't have considered such a set up. Now, I won't gig with anything else and have sold all the lumpy stuff.

Evilmags

I've got both (2 15 waters and a 100 watt). The 15 watter would be fine for blues and classic rock. It I wanted to use the arch top, the 7 string or play funky cleans the 100 watter is miles better.

andyoz

With the advent of cheaper PA gear, I think it's a shame that in small venues bands have forgotten the art of getting a good sound 'from the stage'.  I see alot of bands in small venues hiding behind a cranked up PA that's exceeding it's limits and all tone quality is lost.  They would have been better relying more on their on stage gear and just running mainly the vocals thru the PA with a bit of the other instruments.

Bose isn't that great IMO.