PA help.... (Behringer PMP2000)

FarleyUK

Hi all,

Bit confused and frustrated with this new PA myself and my band have purchased...

Basically, our old one was a bit weedy, and we're playing larger venues now so need something with more power. As such, I purchased a Behringer PMP2000 powered mixer (800W) and a couple of 12" Passive speakers (8 Ohms, 600W per unit).

We've set it up in rehearsal, and are getting pretty nasty feedback and clipping, even though it should be a lot more powerful than the old one!

Now, the way we have it connected is via the right mono output (speakon to jack adapter) into one speaker, then connect the other speaker to this speaker. I have also tried the Bridge output, and that was even worse.

Does anyone have any ideas of how to set it up correctly for these speakers? It's driving me mad!!

Thanks

Danny1969

I think that mixer only drives about 150 watts into 8 Ohms so you won't get anywhere near it's rated power using just the one set of speakers

My advice, sell it on it's probably not gonna do what you want it to do. 

D28boy

Our band uses a BEHRINGER EUROPOWER PMP1680S as a vox p.a. which has proved up to the job for us and keeps up with a Marshall backline ok. Has the advantage of a feedback detection tool.

Danny is right the manual states 165 watts per channel at 8 ohms (I take it you have the manual ?)

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/214307/Behringer-Pmp2000.html?page=9#manual

Suggest as a start you use left and right mono outputs and follow the instructions on the manual. What are you actually using it for?

 

FarleyUK

Oh, balls

It's replacing a Yamaha 212s, but it sounds like it's actually worse then...?

I need a PA that's more powerful than the 212s, and to use it with 2 x 12" 8 Ohm 600w speakers.

Any other suggestions? Would the Peavey PPM 1008 be any good? We only use it for mics, no instruments are sent through the mixer.

ICBM

That amp looks like pretty much a straight copy of the Peavey XR684, only with more optimistic claimed power output.

Even so it should be enough for driving a couple of 1x12" cabs for a vocal-only PA - if the limiting factor is feedback the power of the amp isn't going to make a lot of difference.

First, you've got it set up wrong - you're running both speakers from one channel, so you're only getting about half the power. You need to run one from each channel - with two cables from the amp, not with the speakers daisy-chained.

If you're running it like that so you can use the other side for the monitors - don't. You don't need as much power for the monitors, so get separate powered monitors for that.

What are the speakers? Speaker efficiency makes a huge difference to the volume and projection of a PA, and they are not remotely all equal. An average amp with good speakers will sound better and louder than a good amp with crap speakers.

How have you got them set up in the room? Feedback is often due to poor positioning rather than volume.

FarleyUK

ICBM said:

That amp looks like pretty much a straight copy of the Peavey XR684, only with more optimistic claimed power output.

Even so it should be enough for driving a couple of 1x12" cabs for a vocal-only PA - if the limiting factor is feedback the power of the amp isn't going to make a lot of difference.

First, you've got it set up wrong - you're running both speakers from one channel, so you're only getting about half the power. You need to run one from each channel - with two cables from the amp, not with the speakers daisy-chained.

If you're running it like that so you can use the other side for the monitors - don't. You don't need as much power for the monitors, so get separate powered monitors for that.

What are the speakers? Speaker efficiency makes a huge difference to the volume and projection of a PA, and they are not remotely all equal. An average amp with good speakers will sound better and louder than a good amp with crap speakers.

How have you got them set up in the room? Feedback is often due to poor positioning rather than volume.

Cheers - will try that next week at rehearsal. We actually had the speakers facing us in teh room, but will try it with them out front as well.

The speakers have the following attributes (they are pretty generic ones):

• Power Output: 600W Max
• Connections: 2x Jack Input, 1x Binding Post
• Driver Size: 12 Inch
• Impedance: 8 Ohms
• SPL@1W/1M (dB): 97
• Frequency Range (Hz): 30 Hz - 18 kHz

ICBM

FarleyUK said:

The speakers have the following attributes (they are pretty generic ones)

What brand? If none, or nothing recognisable, that might be a big part of your problem. Power should be rated as *input* to a speaker anyway, which does not inspire confidence. I wouldn't believe the sensitivity spec without knowing more about them either.

It's more likely to be this than the amp. Amplifier power is rarely the limiting factor for this sort of use - I've played some pretty big spaces with no more than 400W of PA, or less - because I had really efficient, high quality speakers.

Try putting the speakers facing you, but not directly - eg on the same long wall but widely separated and pointing directly across the room, with the mics in the middle and the vocalists facing the speakers. If you have the speakers pointing at the mics, especially from the capsule end, you will get feedback.

gubble

I'm using this exact PA for vocals and ocassionally for all instruments into a bigger PA (I posted about this a while back)

Works great for use, no feedback issues other than what you'd expect (putting mics in silly placed) and plenty of volume for your usual pub size gig.

We run a single speaker from each output (left and right) as @icbm suggested.

As he also suggested speakers make a huge difference, we went from some unbranded ones to a set of rebadged peaveys - still not exactly top of the range kit but the difference was amazing and the vocals much clearer and warmer.

FarleyUK

They're Ekho 12" speakers from eBay....... *ahem*

What speakers would you recommend that won't break the bank...?

EDIT - found some Peavey HiSys2XR speakers on the net - used, and £275 for the pair....

ICBM

FarleyUK said:

What speakers would you recommend that won't break the bank...?

EDIT - found some Peavey HiSys2XR speakers on the net - used, and £275 for the pair....

They're pretty good, although heavy. Probably a bit pricey at £275 unless they're in near-perfect condition - old PA gear doesn't really hold its value - although that said, a lot of speaker for what they are if they're working fine. Peavey Impulses are good too, and lighter. Avoid the Eurosys and ST series, they're cheap junk.

EV SX200s are great if you can find them too. Plenty of others as well.

I have some little old Celestions that are nice, very efficient, but probably a bit small for what you need - only 1x10"s.

FarleyUK

Cheers

Just looking on Amazon.... can't spend a fortune unfortunately, but would these speakers be decent when paired with that powered mixer? 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-VS1220-Eurolive-600W-Speaker/dp/B0029RKM50/ref=pd_sim_sbs_267_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=03A24Q2FP3VFKWKW7PN9&dpID=51clWvcFIfL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_

Or even these ones, the 15" versions of the above:

https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/PA-Speakers/Behringer-Eurolive-VS1520-Passive-PA-Speaker_382530.htm?CAWELAID=120173110000083521&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=120173110000117183&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwkK6wBRCcoK_tiOT-zFASJAC7RAriuHT0r_fadNYCt3k_reajTazmd_TRG9MahrajUK95UhoCzyjw_wcB#rtabs3

Or, even these from Thomann?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa15eco_mkii.htm?sid=f9f3dc1057485c55ec3be38609f4876e

ICBM

I doubt it. It's hard to say without seeing proper technical specs or listening to them, but my gut feeling is that you simply can't get decent speakers for that sort of money. I wouldn't buy new, anyway - PA doesn't hold its value, so you can get far better kit second hand for the same price.

If you're only going to be putting vocals through them, I would actually avoid 15" drivers if you can - there's no real advantage, and if anything they can leave an odd 'hole' in the midrange and lack punch compared to similar 12" models. In fact I don't really see the point in 15s in main PA cabs at all unless there is also a proper midrange driver - it's better to use separate subs if you need the extra bottom end.

Better, more efficient 1x12"s sound better than 1x15"s and are a fair bit smaller and easier to move.

Danny1969

Drop an email to info@2020studios.co.uk we have some HK 12" tops and 15" subs we've moving on

FarleyUK

Danny1969 said:

Drop an email to info@2020studios.co.uk we have some HK 12" tops and 15" subs we've moving on

Cheers - have emailed you.

FarleyUK

OK, found someone near me selling a Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer, 2 x Peavey Pro 15 600W speakers (4 ohm) and a Phonic Wedge Monitor... for £160!

From the look of it, the mixer outputs about 500W per channel in 4 Ohm mode and 320W in 8 ohm mode.

Hopefully going to take a look this weekend - assuming it'll be a lot better than the existing one!

BilliBob

I had pmp5000 functionality was amazing for the price.  Main showstopper was the preamps, when attenuating the input gain.  Nearly nearly nearly nearlytoomuch.  Sold it on and have never looked back.  Soundcraft/Allen and Heath.  Preamps are in a different class, even the older ones.

FarleyUK

Ok, picked up the Yamaha mx512sc - outputs 500w per channel at 4 ohms, which these peavey pro 15s are. Also got a monitor wedge at 8 ohms that's passive.

Now - is it ok to have the monitor connected by daisy chaining from one speaker? Can't use the other amp and have the front of house connected to the other power amp as they are 4 ohm speakers and I believe they would need to be 8 ohm when connected....

ICBM

FarleyUK said:

Now - is it ok to have the monitor connected by daisy chaining from one speaker?

No. If the Peavey speakers are 4 ohm and the amp is 4 ohm minimum per channel then you must not daisy-chain another speaker. Use both channels of the Yamaha to drive both FOH speakers only (one from each channel) as it was designed to.

You need to use the monitor sub-mix output on the Yamaha to go to another amp which then drives the monitor. The Behringer is ideal for this since it also has a graphic EQ which will be useful - you'll need a different EQ on the monitor than the mains to get the best feedback rejection.

You never want to have the monitor on the same mix as the mains anyway, unless there's really no alternative.

This also should mean that you have two complete amps, so if something bad goes wrong you have a backup, although you'll need to work out how to reconnect it all. The only thing you can't do is run more than one speaker from one channel of either amp if any of the speakers are 4 ohm.