Alternate picking - wrist rotate or side to side?

thomasross20

What do you do? A bit of side to side like Guthrie or this guy:

Or do you rotate the wrist a bit like Van Halen (typically the thumb heel part of the hand is floating with this type of player). 

DLM

That's Andy Wood wearing the santa suit.

thomasross20

What? Santa isn't real!?

Danny1969

I'm working hard on the VH humming bird technique but the non anchored arm hanging in the middle of nowhere thing is really hard to master. His technique is the most aggressive sounding though which is why I'm pursuing it 

Danny1969

Like this :

thomasross20

I try all these little techniques in excruciating detail lol. 

When you pick... do you feel a lot of the force and control coming from the connection between thumb and plectrum or is it more from the wrist (I know it all stems from the wrist in the end but in the mind's eye the focal point really matters)? For some time I noticed my up-picks where coming up off the body of the guitar, not returning "in-line" (in the same line the down pick followed) - sort of like bobbing up and down and wasting energy.

thomasross20

Danny, I mix a bit of that and a bit of wrist side-to side - my picking is ever evolving. I think that technique (hand on heart!) isn't as efficient and lowering your wrist more - I think accuracy is a bit tougher when jumping from string to string etc but I can see the attraction! 

thomasross20

The whole rotational wrist thing DOES feel somewhat effortless - very natural... I used to think the wrist side-to-side thing was unnatural but trying both these now, I'm getting used to it - still not sure which is better, though.

Danny1969

thomasross20 said:

Danny, I mix a bit of that and a bit of wrist side-to side - my picking is ever evolving. I think that technique (hand on heart!) isn't as efficient and lowering your wrist more - I think accuracy is a bit tougher when jumping from string to string etc but I can see the attraction! 

Ah yeah I'm only thinking of trilling on one string, jumping across strings using that technique would be hopeless I would have thought

He makes that trilling technique sound so cool though 

thomasross20

Cool! Yeah - total legend!!

ElectroDan

After watching the vid Thomas, I'd disagree with your analysis and say that Santa is picking with side to side wrist movement (or wrist deviation as Troy Grady calls it).

If you look at the end where he tremolo picks, he locks his wrist and uses all elbow movement to get the speed.

With wrist rotation you can get tremolo picking speed without changing your technique. Although Danny is right; to get that Van Halen aggressive picked sound you have to arc the wrist. It's just extra leverage making the pick travel further and generate more power.

Anyway. I think you should refrain from looking at any more high end guitars before your Mrs has a sense of humour failure.

)

thomasross20

I think any time you go to absolute mega speed, the forearm comes into it ever so slightly (or a lot for some players!)

MatthewShreddery

Watch from about 2:08 to see how I alternate pick

thomasross20

Will check it in a few days - at work now and out for my birthday later

ElectroDan

@MatthewShreddery Nice playing and interesting note choices. :-bd

With regards to your alternate picking; there is definitely forearm rotation. Your motion is very economical so it's not immediately apparent, but if you look at the top of your forearm where it meets your sleeve you will see the movement there. Of course there will be some movement of the wrist too. Good stuff.

Fair play to Troy Grady, he's made me far better at analysing my own picking and my playing has noticeably improved as a result.

thomasross20

Jesus! That is some mighty impressive playing! Why are you not famous? 

I think it looks like a mix between side to side and forearm rotation, sort of like I say I do - the thumb heel part isn't flat against the bridge and I can see both elements creeping in. VERY interestingly, you angle your thumb joint like I do, point down toward the ground somewhat.

thomasross20

Do you have links to other stuff by yourself or your band etc? 

MatthewShreddery

Thanks guys.

I think the thing to understand with alternate picking is that there are many ways to accomplish the same result.

Unless you are doing something completely retarded, you just need to stick with it and practice A LOT.

Just look at all the different approaches the many famous shredders have to this technique. 

Something I've learnt over the years trying to master picking is that certain patterns lend themselves to alternate picking and others don't.

You need to come up with ideas that you know will work for you.

Before giving up on a pattern, experiment with starting on both an up and a downstroke.

I've found that when I struggle with a pattern, it's usually because there is a difficult string cross in there somewhere, so starting the picking the other way round can make it an easier manoeuvre.

All this talk of patterns however is exactly the reason I don't pursue alternate picking much these days.

It tends to result in a lot of scale based ideas that are of a certain style, not very inspiring. Though impressive.

thomasross20

I think it's also half muscle memory and half "mind's eye" if you know what I mean? 

I know what you mean about crosses - that's the difficult bit, being able to switch between upslant and downslant section across strings. 

I still practice it but not to death - I don't practice sweeping or economy picking etc. To me they're too specialist (though I can do them to a degree) resulting in similar sounding lines and not conducive to improv. Prefer fingers & pick or fingerstyle as "something else"

MatthewShreddery

Yes it's massively about muscle memory.

If you don't keep up the practice it rapidly deteriorates. For me at least.

I practice economy and sweeping mainly, but enjoy working on alternate picked 2NPS pentatonic stuff a la Eric Johnson.

bingefeller

MatthewShreddery said:

Watch from about 2:08 to see how I alternate pick

wownice playing.

This video of Remy Hansen has lots of good close ups of him alternate picking.  His technique, from what I can tell, is incredibly close to Paul Gilbert's: