Preserving signatures with an extra layer of nitro?

Panama_Jack666

Now then,

When I was on me jollys recently, I managed to get a guitar signed by a load of people in Nashville. Originally the guitar was going to be a souvinir and my intentions were to hang it on a wall and leave it. However! It's too good to not gig! So, I'm hoping to preserve the signatures for a while. I'm not bothered with preserving them indefinitely.

The guitar is a Roadworn strat (there will be a NGD coming soon with the story of getting it). Its original finish is thin nitro. It has been signed in permanent marker. Would it be possible to get a couple of layers of nitro over it without ruining the signatures? It's been signed in a way where they shouldn't wear off quickly when I gig it anyway but an extra clear coat of something will preserve them for that bit longer.

One dude that repairs guitars reckoned another coat of nitro would make the signatures run and has suggested putting a clear adhesive sheet over the sigs? I don't want to do this, I think it'd look rubbish. What say you makers and modders?

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a555/Panama_Jack666/Mobile Uploads/20151029_010324_zpsm5rgy0eh.jpg
http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a555/Panama_Jack666/Mobile Uploads/20151029_010346_zps7dl55zpe.jpg

lloyd

I've no advice on how to cover it or whatever but if you gig it, the signatures will get lost....One of mine got signed and I didn't preserve it in any way and the sig's gone now.

Lovely looking guitar btw.

Panama_Jack666

lloyd said:

I've no advice on how to cover it or whatever but if you gig it, the signatures will get lost....One of mine got signed and I didn't preserve it in any way and the sig's gone now.

Lovely looking guitar btw.

Cheers! I got very lucky with it!

I'm being very careful at the moment. I don't mind if they disappear eventually as they're documented on photo's but it'll be frustrating if they've all disappeared after an evening in a pub!

WezV

nitro is tricky because it won't just melt the sigs, it will melt the existing finish too.  also, do you know what pen was used and if it will be compatible?

There is a good chance you could get away with a few really light coats, but if it goes wrong its a re-fin job

Corvus

If you're using cans, warm one in a bit of hot water. Not boiling...Mist a coat on, you don't want anything like full coverage here, just a very light pass, and from more of a distance that usual. Let that sit a good 5 mins. Do this somewhere at room temp or more btw. Then another couple or three coats in the same way, list mist, wait.
Now you have a little barrier so you can put a wet gloss coat on - but still go easy. Better light coats than heavy.
Mist coats avoid flooding on solvent; that's a solvent-heavy paint. Waiting 5-10mins lets the solvent flash (evaporate).
Also degrease the guitar where you can, fingerprints & smears & gack are the enemy.
I'd use nitro clear not 1k acrylic (as per most cans in shop racks)

Lacquer won't stick brilliantly to scratchplate plastic but it can last ok if not chipped etc. Be careful screwing that down. A little dab of Vaseline will help the heads not to chew off the clearcoat.

Panama_Jack666

WezV said:

nitro is tricky because it won't just melt the sigs, it will melt the existing finish too.  also, do you know what pen was used and if it will be compatible?

There is a good chance you could get away with a few really light coats, but if it goes wrong its a re-fin job

I still have the pen that was used for the majority of the sigs so I can find out.

Should I just suck it up and get playing it do you reckon? The main sig on the scratch plate is Vince Gill. I've ordered another scratchplate to replace that one so at least that can be preserved. I could clear adhesive the back of the headstock as they're important ones. Any ideas for preserving the others?

Panama_Jack666

Corvus said:

If you're using cans, warm one in a bit of hot water. Not boiling...Mist a coat on, you don't want anything like full coverage here, just a very light pass, and from more of a distance that usual. Let that sit a good 5 mins. Do this somewhere at room temp or more btw. Then another couple or three coats in the same way, list mist, wait.
Now you have a little barrier so you can put a wet gloss coat on - but still go easy. Better light coats than heavy.
Mist coats avoid flooding on solvent; that's a solvent-heavy paint. Waiting 5-10mins lets the solvent flash (evaporate).
Also degrease the guitar where you can, fingerprints & smears & gack are the enemy.
I'd use nitro clear not 1k acrylic (as per most cans in shop racks)

Lacquer won't stick brilliantly to scratchplate plastic but it can last ok if not chipped etc. Be careful screwing that down. A little dab of Vaseline will help the heads not to chew off the clearcoat.

Just seen this post after my last post...

Sounds easy... although I'm fairly sure it's beyond my skill level but what you've described is exactly what it needs I think. I need to find someone to do it on my behalf!

Corvus

Nah, you'll be fine...   maybe practice the misting thing on something else first. It's just a dust coat, like it sounds fairly dry-looking, the thing is just to restrain yourself from hossing a load on at once,,, and the patience in letting it sit for 5-10 mins, those are the only things to it, it's not hard as such.

Panama_Jack666

Corvus said:

Nah, you'll be fine...   maybe practice the misting thing on something else first. It's just a dust coat, like it sounds fairly dry-looking, the thing is just to restrain yourself from hossing a load on at once,,, and the patience in letting it sit for 5-10 mins, those are the only things to it, it's not hard as such.

OK - I am quite experimental so I could give it a whirl I guess...

I've not problem dismantling or rebuilding and setting up guitars. It's just playing with finishes is a new concept for me!

Is the link below what I need?

http://www.northwestguitars.co.uk/clear-gloss-nitrocellulose-lacquer-aerosol-400ml/

Warm the stuff up in the link, then stand a couple of feet back and mist the entire body. Let it dry, repeat?

Apologies, I sound like a complete newbie! That'll be because I am!

thermionic

Scan the sigs and wash them off. Create graphics from the scans and print out on waterslide decal paper. Nitro over the decals.

Corvus

I don't use cans but that should be fine, also R&K and Steve Robinson do nitro clears.

Mist from say 18" away, something like that, but it depends on how much material the can sprays. Test a bit, you want a misty-looking coat sat on it. Not wet-looking. Couple of test sprays and you'll know what it's like no worries.
The misty-bitty-dryish look will all come good & smooth after a wet coat.
Stand a can in a bath of warm water and shake now & then. after a bit the whole can will stay feeling warm. At first it'll feel cool after each shake.

Only the top & plate really needs the build of light misting coats. Paint the back as normal and it doesn't need loads of coats. Probably easier to do the whole body with a couple of wet coats. It's poss to blend a partial re-clear but prob easier to lay a coat or two over the whole thing.

So long as you build enough thin mist coats, take your time, and make the first wet coat none too thick, you'll be fine. Good luck with it!

Btw one trick to check the wet coat is wet enough but not massively thick is look at the paint/body at an angle, so you can see it laying down and levelling itself, the light shows that happening. Feels a bit odd at first spraying from one direction and watching from another but it works well.

BigMonka

How about using the b@ sign to summon @SteveRobinson and @SimonRF for their expert opinions?

Panama_Jack666

Calling @SteveRobinson & @SimonRF! What are your thoughts please? Cheers @BigMonka

Panama_Jack666

Corvus said:

I don't use cans but that should be fine, also R&K and Steve Robinson do nitro clears.

Mist from say 18" away, something like that, but it depends on how much material the can sprays. Test a bit, you want a misty-looking coat sat on it. Not wet-looking. Couple of test sprays and you'll know what it's like no worries.
The misty-bitty-dryish look will all come good & smooth after a wet coat.
Stand a can in a bath of warm water and shake now & then. after a bit the whole can will stay feeling warm. At first it'll feel cool after each shake.

Only the top & plate really needs the build of light misting coats. Paint the back as normal and it doesn't need loads of coats. Probably easier to do the whole body with a couple of wet coats. It's poss to blend a partial re-clear but prob easier to lay a coat or two over the whole thing.

So long as you build enough thin mist coats, take your time, and make the first wet coat none too thick, you'll be fine. Good luck with it!

Btw one trick to check the wet coat is wet enough but not massively thick is look at the paint/body at an angle, so you can see it laying down and levelling itself, the light shows that happening. Feels a bit odd at first spraying from one direction and watching from another but it works well.

Thanks for the info - it definitely sounds doable...   I'd still rather someone else do it I think but I will attempt it if there are no recommendations/easier options. I think I would manage to get an uneven or bad finish on the end. I might have to sign a cheap partscaster and attempt it on thrat first!

Corvus

It is very doable and easy, don't be put off by the long wordage... just wanted to get the technique across, just needs a spot of patience between coats and the misting thing which is very easy to do. A mins practice and you'd have that down. Should be able to do the whole job inside an hour, exc stripping down etc of course.
It's an old bog-standard technique for sensitive things. People have done things like cover a whole car bonnet in sharpie art and cleared over it. I've used it over pen, paint pen, pinstripe enamel etc.

Decals are more hassle. Have to scan, print, clear the decal without it bleeding (misting technique here), apply it and then bury it clearcoat.

Panama_Jack666

Corvus said:

It is very doable and easy, don't be put off by the long wordage... just wanted to get the technique across, just needs a spot of patience between coats and the misting thing which is very easy to do. A mins practice and you'd have that down. Should be able to do the whole job inside an hour, exc stripping down etc of course.
It's an old bog-standard technique for sensitive things. People have done things like cover a whole car bonnet in sharpie art and cleared over it. I've used it over pen, paint pen, pinstripe enamel etc.

Decals are more hassle. Have to scan, print, clear the decal without it bleeding (misting technique here), apply it and then bury it clearcoat.

So I'm 100% clear...

Get the can
Warm the can
Shake the can
Warm the can
Shake the can
When satified can is warm
Spray body using misting technique somewhere that's room temp
Leave body to dry
Spray body using misting technique again
Leave body to dry
Spray body using misting technique again
Leave body to dry
Finish body with one or two proper layers of nitro (was this what you was referring to the 'wet' coat?)
Leave body to dry

I expect one can should be able to do all that? Or will I need more?  You say you don't use cans, what do you use? A proper nitro gun/machine?

Simples!

SteveRobinson

One can should be all you need. @Billkat is right to say mist the first few coats on. If you apply the lacquer too wet, it will sag and the sigs will run.

You're lucky it's nitrocellulose as the new lacquer will bond well it won't with a modern cured finish. It won't stick very well to the pickguard either and will chip eventually. You might be better using self-adhesive mylar film there.

Corvus

PJ, that's about it. Warm can somewhat, shake now & then till well stirred up. Mist/leave for 5-10 mins, do that 2-3 times or until there's a covering layer on there. Then the "wet" coat(s) to turn the misty finish into gloss.
Go easy with the first wet coat because that's solvent-heavy paint and will melt into the existing coats somewhat, so you don't want to put that much on that it affects the sigs.
Let the wet coats dry fully. Like any paint, if you want you can very lightly sand out any dust or suicide insects and polish those spots back to a shine. Very fine wet & dry like a 1500 or 2000 and go very easy sanding of course if you've only put a solid coat or two of clear.

Warmish room because you want the solvent to go away faster and because spraying in damp air can cause 'bloom', a white cloudy or milky appearance, in your wet coats.

I used to use cans a long while ago but have a spray room with compressors, airfed mask & extractor etc. Still use a rattle can once in a while, like the other half scuffed her bumper corner so a mixed rattle can is cheap and saves some gun cleanup. Guns for the clearcoat though.

edit
Jack if you're really unsure about DIYing it, do find someone who's comfortable doing it whether local or by post. If you've painted before you should be ok, but if not do farm it out but make sure they're happy dealing with it.

SimonRF

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner on this @Panama_Jack666 Just a couple of thoughts:

- Nitro will give protection for now but isn't necessarily a lifetime solution (what is?) as it will gradually degrade over time. A 1K acrylic will give more and longer lasting protection.

- Photograph all the signatures well ASAP - if it all goes pear shaped when lacquering or if the lacquer ages and takes the signatures with them we can always recreate the graphics from the photo to reproduce the look.

- Warming cans of nitro can cause other problems and is not something we typically recommend. The cans and lacquer should be at room temperature, about 22 degrees, before spraying. The solvents in nitro are called VOCs because they evaporate at room temperature - anything warmer than this and they flash off very quickly indeed. This can stop blooms from forming, but can also prevent the new coat of lacquer from properly melting into and adhering to the coat below. It'll look great at first, but can make the finish far more susceptible to cracking much sooner than it otherwise would. This flashing off in combination with thin coats is the most common cause of premature cracking we've come across.

- Check out our listing for a nitro lacquer kit, if you scroll down there's a download for finishing/spraying guide. It's more extensive than you'd need for this project, but the aerosol and spraying tips still apply and you might find useful: http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/complete-nitrocellulose-guitar-body-lacquer-kit-natural-clear-gloss/

HTH

Simon