Really loud watts

PC_Dave

So, as i've been procrastinating, pondering, searching etc for a small but powerful yet inexpensive amp (aren't we all?) i've read a lot of posts or adverts/descriptions that have mentioned the phrase "really loud considering it's only XYZ watts" or the like.

That got me thinking - is there such a thing as "really loud for the wattage/size"? I mean, I know it essentially comes down to the amount of air the thing can move, but would a 12 watt 1x12 combo be "louder" than another 12 watt 1x12 combo?

If so, what would the main contributing factors be?

jimmyguitar

I think it's how individual companies rate the wattage. Some are 'total watts' whereas others rate it as 'total clean watts until breakup'. My 15w matchless Lightning is earth crushingly loud and has enough clean headroom to compete with a full band unmic'd. I previously had a 15w fender pro jr and that struggled in the same environment.

PC_Dave

jimmyguitar said:

I think it's how individual companies rate the wattage. Some are 'total watts' whereas others rate it as 'total clean watts until breakup'. My 15w matchless Lightning is earth crushingly loud and has enough clean headroom to compete with a full band unmic'd. I previously had a 15w fender pro jr and that struggled in the same environment.

Ah ok! Hadn't thought about that...

Cirrus

the speaker is the big variable - it's the thing that turns electrical output into noise, and some are more efficient than others.

siraxeman

something I think can be a good thing is a lesser efficient speaker as long as the tones there of course as it will allow us to turn the thing up more and work the power stage more! My band mates 1x12 TSL601 he has on 3pm which is 3/4 the way up on his lead channel.....without using an attenuator my AC30 is on 2 with my pedals kicking it in the teeth....

Nerine

Don't discount the voicing of the amp. 10 watts of amplification will push a middy, snarly tone to higher SPLs (I would think) than an amp that is more low mid centric.
Lower frequencies require more energy to reproduce. So in theory your watts will go less far..
Speakers also matter as stated above. I think they can vary in efficiency by as much as 10dB or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.

But, even a sensitivity difference between drivers of 2dB can have quite a noticeable difference in their perceived output. Then you also have to account for impedance too.

Quite a few variables.

I always find the simpler amps to generally sound louder, though.

For example a Dual Rectifier is rated (by a certain yardstick) at 100w.
A Marshall 1959HW is rated (by maybe a different yardstick, granted) at 100w.

I would bet my last quid that with the Boogie at full tilt, you could easily drown it out with the Plexi. They deliver their power like nothing else.

Danny1969

A lot of amps are very conservatively rated, my Blackstar HT5 can actually put out a lot more than 5 watts

It's like the opposite of Maplin power amp advertising

Phil_aka_Pip

Marshall watts always seem to be louder

Catthan

Like @Nerine, I think the amps EQ is key to the perceivable volume.

I was wondering why a 30W /13 amp needed a MV and after listening to many demos it became clear that /13 have a distinct high-mids voicing that will probably sit them right in any mix.

drwiddly

Just listen to any other 30w amp and then listen to an AC30. They are crushingly loud.

ICBM

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Marshall watts always seem to be louder

Except for the TSL60, which as siraxeman said is pathetic for a "60W" amp (even given that it's really only 50W). Most modern Marshalls are not as loud as the "same" rated amps of 30 years ago. Why, I'm not exactly sure.

Compression in the power amp makes quite a difference, that's one reason why amps like the AC30 sound loud for their rated power.

There's a lot of variability in the power supply section of the amp too, which changes the dynamics and 'presence' of the amp - that matters more than outright power, often - probably second only to the speakers as the main cause of differences.

EQ is important, as is harmonic complexity - an amp with a very harmonic-rich sound (another form of distortion, rather than clipping which is why guitarists usually mean) will sound louder, because the ear is more sensitive to complex sounds than clean ones.

Lots of reasons… even before you get into the difference between valve and solid-state.

PC_Dave

Thank you all for the information!

impmann

Our old guitarist had a modern Marshall 100w valve thing into a 4x12. He regularly gigged it at 2/3rds to 3/4 volume with a Les Paul.

I used to get moaned at for being too loud with my Sessionette 75 being on 2 with an overdrive pedal into the front end.

Seriously, it had more to do with his thick, syrupy middle honk sound that modern Marshalls seem to develop. Frankly it was horrible - it was like a nightmarish version of Slash with a blanket over the cab. No amount of eq solved it.

Eventually he borrowed a plexi reissue a gig with a booster into the front end - same cab. Fuck my Wellington Boots was that loud!!!

These days, I gig with a different chap who has a Hayden Mofo 15 - that can get pretty loud and despite some people's reservations he makes it sound great. He also has a JCM800 50w head (later one with reverb) - whilst that can get fairly loud, I prefer the sound of the Hayden and I think it cuts through the mix better.

Oh and AC30s? Back in the 90s I gigged with three... monumentally, stupidly, ridiculously loud. Ultimately pointlessly loud too!! Amazing amps, though...

xchrisv

Speaker efficiency is a huge factor. Everything else being equal, a couple of dB can make the difference between being heard over a loud drummer or not. For instance, I've generally found that a vintage-style 15-18 watt 1x12 combo with a Greenback won't cut it, but is more than loud and punchy enough with a G12H, Blue or Red Fang.

svejk

I gig with a modded 22w tweed deluxe clone (Tube Tone Engineering Redneck 20), and an 18w marshall / vox hybrid (by Bluebird Amps). Both hand wired, and will very easily drown out an unmiced drum kit. I turn the 18w Bluebird up to 3, and it's deafening! I swapped the really inefficient Jensen out of the tweed, and swapped for a Tayden True Brit - this also gave me a big boost, and means I have loads of volume in reserve.

In my view, once you can drown out a drum kit, any more volume is irrelevant as to go louder, everything will be miced up.

If have come round to thinking 15-20w in a valve amp with an efficient speaker is the way to go (for me anyway).

impmann

Drown out a drum kit is the wrong phrase...

"Play along with" - surely?

ICBM

Distortion makes a huge difference too - this is the reason why a lot of people don't seem to understand why some others want to use 100W amps. Distortion - especially the classic midrange 'rock' overdrive - is at least 6dB higher in perceived volume compared to a completely clean sound, simply because in order to maintain unclipped transients the power of the amp needs to be about that much higher than the average power, whereas when the amp is overdriven the average power is almost the same as the maximum power.

6dB more requires four times the power. So in order to provide the same clean volume as an overdriven 20W amp, you need at least 80W. That's why amps like the Fender Twin are still used by players who want a clean sound - of course it seems like overkill if you never play really clean, but it isn't. If you play a style of music which uses tight high-gain sounds with a lot of bottom-end you probably don't want power-stage distortion either, it tends to turn everything to mush.

This is also one of the reasons "solid state watts" seem quieter than "valve watts"… overdriving a solid-state power section is usually a bad idea - it often sounds terrible and can be risky for the amp and the speaker - so many amps are deliberately prevented from doing so, by clipping at an earlier stage. This means the maximum available power is automatically about 3dB less than the same power of valve amp which can be allowed to fully overdrive.

GuyBoden

For a more accurate testing of the loudness of sound, you'll need a Sound Level meter.

On offer here at £14.

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/p-426844/silverline-905722.html?gclid=CMq0sPW3sMkCFda4Gwod2fcCbw

littlethoughts

What about cabinet construction? closed or open backed can change the directionality and frequency response of the amp directly in front of the speaker. The total output power would be the same if you measured it in all directions, but unless you are doing it wrong you probably aren't listening to it directly underneath. So one amp might seem louder, but actually it's just more directional. I've found that anecdotally to be the case - I used to have an old carlsbro amp which was practically a sonic death ray - although of course feel free to correct me if I'm talking shit.

ICBM

littlethoughts said:

What about cabinet construction? closed or open backed can change the directionality and frequency response of the amp directly in front of the speaker. The total output power would be the same if you measured it in all directions, but unless you are doing it wrong you probably aren't listening to it directly underneath. So one amp might seem louder, but actually it's just more directional. I've found that anecdotally to be the case - I used to have an old carlsbro amp which was practically a sonic death ray - although of course feel free to correct me if I'm talking shit.

You're not . When I let another guitarist borrow my 1x12" Mesa DC-5 combo several years ago at fairly big gig, I went to the back of the room to watch and when I was directly in line with the amp, it was audible over the top of the whole multi-kilowatt PA, and it wasn't even turned up full. And yet a few feet to one side, you could only hear it in the PA. The beam was still that narrow even at least 100' away.

The old 100W small-cab Mark series Boogies are even more directional than that one, too.

Fuzzdog

impmann said:

I used to get moaned at for being too loud with my Sessionette 75 being on 2 with an overdrive pedal into the front end.

My rig was a Sessionette and pedals for a while - the other guitarist in one band laughed when I turned up to the audition with it, as he had a 100w Marshall + 4x12" rig and mine looked hilarious in comparison.

Only volume level issues we ever used to have were about him not having enough headroom to keep up, as he was in love with that scoopy mids thing and had to crank the hell out of it to even keep up with the drums, whereas the Sessionette (which was basically all midrange) cut through and sat in the mix perfectly with the volume barely tickled.