feedback

musicegbdf

We seem to have lots of problems with bass string feedback. I have had the peizo replaced , still does it . The guitar is a faith saturn. I just bought a fishman loudbox artist and used all the antifeedback stuff. It helps a bit , but not at levels needed . I have tried turning the guitar volume right down and increasing the amp. I am standing well away frrom the amp and neither in front or behind the amp.
I tried my shure sm7 mic . Full volume .. No feedback. Not sure what can be done. Any ideas , any good luthiers who specialise in this in essex/ london

ICBM

Are you putting the amp through the PA as well, or just using the amp by itself?

musicegbdf

Amp on it's own at home for now. Anything louder than normal guitar volume it starts to feedback , I understand it is called cavity resonance. I suppose I could stuff an old t shirt in it

ICBM

You could get a Feedback Buster for the soundhole.

If you play in a confined space with a decent acoustic guitar with a sensitive pickup it will feed back at any level much above the acoustic volume unless you EQ out the resonant frequency. But why do you need to play at that volume at home?

If you're practicing for playing live, it will be better on a stage with a bit of space around it so the sound isn't reflected straight back into the guitar.

musicegbdf

Ohh Ok . yes I was just trying to see how it would be at higher levels . That makes sense now.

Are the Soundhole plugs any good. I see they are cheap so might be worth a go.

I did wonder as when I watched the tech fit the Peizo I noticed it was much longer than the bridge and goes down into the body of the guitar and just floats around

ICBM

musicegbdf said:

Are the Soundhole plugs any good. I see they are cheap so might be worth a go.

Yes. They don't cure the problem completely - because the body will still resonate, just less - but they raise the feedback threshold by about 3-6dB usually. (ie to around double the volume.)

musicegbdf said:

I did wonder as when I watched the tech fit the Peizo I noticed it was much longer than the bridge and goes down into the body of the guitar and just floats around

That sounds like a B-Band pickup. (I'm not sure what Faith fit.) They're just a different type, no better or worse than normal. The bit that's in the guitar shouldn't pick up much - basically it's the guitar body vibrating that's the problem.

musicegbdf

Brilliant , thks your help. For a £5 it sounds like it is worth having one around anyway. Thks also for the heads up about the Peizo as I always wondered about it.

musicegbdf

Sorry another question. This is for my daughter and she often turns up to a gig and plugs her acoustic into the PA . However, she is using my electric more and more. She can carry a guitar on the train but not really an amp. If she wants to do that ( use an electric into a PA) should she use some kind of box/pod. She will only be playing acoustic style to accompany herself so clean is OK, but suspect having a few effects (reverb/delay,etc_) would be good

ICBM

You can plug an electric directly into a PA via a standard DI box. I know a lot of people will throw up their hands in horror and say it can't be done or it will sound crap, and… if you want an *electric guitar sound*, then it will. But if you want a clean, pseudo-acoustic sort of sound it will work. Depending on the guitar it might work very well - I DI my Rickenbacker, on purpose, and it sounds good. (I would probably use the neck pickup if you aren't sure what sound to try.)

I would avoid reverb and delay unless you want to make them specifically part of your style - if not, they tend to confuse the sound and make it harder for the soundman, who can add the right type of reverb at the desk where it will work better with whatever has been chosen for the vocals. You don't really want too many different types of these effects at the same time.

If you want other effects, or more of a 'proper electric guitar sound', then any small FX unit with some sort of speaker emulation will work. Just make sure you set it up with about half as much of each effect as you think you need when it's at home .

musicegbdf

Thks ICBM , if I ever meet you I owe you gallons of beer for the advice over the years. I have been thinking that it would be good if she could have a DI with a tuner. Then I remembered I have a zoom G2 that I don't use which I seem to recall has a line out setting , she could perhaps that and ignore the effects . What do you think? Or do you think a specialist unit will be better ( like a behringer DI 100) and an independant tuner. I want to keep it simple as she has no interest in gear , she just usually get's up and sings. She gigs in London so travels by tube , so needs portabilty. I have reading the other thread about DI's and think something that can run on battery in case there are issues getting phantom power or mains. Any recomendations? Thanks again

ICBM

The little Zooms are great for all those reasons. You don't have to use all the effects! In fact I've always found that the best way to approach them (and other similar units) is to start by turning off all the effects, then turn on only the basics with much milder settings than the factory presets, and only add other stuff in moderation if you really need it.

For open-mic gigs an all-in-one unit with battery power is a godsend, it minimises the set-up time and clutter on stage and makes you immune from lack of phantom power or no mains at the front of the stage. If it can fit in your gig bag pocket as well, so much the better! I always try to go for a "one case solution" for anything like this, especially if you're traveling on public transport.

Believe it or not this is exactly how I play bass in bands now - as long as I don't have to take my own amp (many venues have house backline these days) I go with a bass in a gig bag and a Zoom B3 in the pocket. It does everything I need, sounds great and means that I can go on the bus instead of driving, and have a beer or two!

musicegbdf

Brilliant , that is just how I see it. As she is a solo performer and has no interest in gear I need to give her simple and reliable.
Again great advice .
Thanks

maltingsaudio

Just to add a bit here. gain structure plays a very important part here to controlling feedback. Quite often you can reduce the problems you have by reducing the input gain and  making up the volume on the master,In simple terms your reducing sensitivity of the pickup to unwanted frequencies but keeping the volume there.   In my experience B Bands always cause problems my least favourite system to di careful EQ and gain structure is the key to this less input gain and HI pass on the bass at 90/100HZ. . I have also had a Taylor Breath system go seriously tits up on a stage just wouldn't stop feeding back no matter what you did, but put that down to a one off situation. Feedback busters work well Combined piezo and mic systems are another headache but again the answer is to use less input gain than you woul expect and make it up on the channel. The other thing to watch is actually how much unnecessary bass you put into the whole system when dealing with acoustic acts. I tend to take everyhting out of the PA below 80hz and monitors below 100/120hz befor I start if possible.     

musicegbdf

That is very interesting Maltings and helpful. She has now a Fishman Loudbox Artist which has a number of controls for feedback. There is a Bass feedback control which you dial in playing a G# on the Bass string , which I understand cuts around 80 /100 Hz. There is also a "phase button" for the high pitch feedback , though this does not seem to be a problem . There is also attenuator button that cuts the gain by 10 DB for each channel . I assume this is because it is a two channel with a single master volume, and that way you can cut one on the inputs down.

The main problem has beent he Bass "Howl" and it is interesting to know that it could be the electronics , I seem to recall these were called "shadow" (it's a Faith Saturn) but might be wrong. What I did was cut the guitar volume down and made the 10db cut at the gain stage and increased the master , then dialed in the Feedback filter. It all helped. I might also invest in one of those rubber bung things for thesound hole.

Though did not think to lower the bass further . I wonder if it would be worth changing the electronics in the guitar to something better ...If so which system... or maybe a new guitar would be more economic.

For now she might take an electric instead and I will need to get her a DI box to go into the PA (She will be playing acoustic style accompany open chord stuff) and looking on other threads it seems  a cheap passive one is recommended (ICBM) . I just need to research a little more.

Thks again this is an interesting subject

ICBM

musicegbdf said:

For now she might take an electric instead and I will need to get her a DI box to go into the PA (She will be playing acoustic style accompany open chord stuff) and looking on other threads it seems  a cheap passive one is recommended (ICBM) .

No . For *electric* guitar (ie sounding like one) and possibly bass (especially overdriven), then a passive DI box is good, exactly because it doesn't work as well as an active one and can roll off the top-end and possibly add a bit of harmonic distortion.

But for acoustic guitar, or for electric guitar being used as an acoustic, you want an active one - you want the sound to be as clean and clear as possible, and a passive electric guitar can't drive a passive DI box properly anyway, it will kill the top-end. On the other hand if she is using an effects box as well, then a passive one should be OK.

It may be worth having her own DI box, but any proper sound engineer at an open mic will have one or two anyway. If the venue is too small to have a proper PA and DI boxes, just go straight from the FX box to the desk with a 1/4" cable, it will work fine.

musicegbdf

Brilliant.I have to say she does seem to get away with a lot ( being a 20 year old attractive female might help ! ) . It may also be because she does play in Clubs/Pubs in central London that seem well equipped. Though she might get caught one day so I could get her one as a small christmas present. 

Thks again

ICBM

musicegbdf said:

I have to say she does seem to get away with a lot ( being a 20 year old attractive female might help ! ) .

Ha - speaking as someone who has done some small-gig and open-mic soundman stuff, I… er… know exactly what you mean .