Please help to settle a disagreement

viz

Thing is, it's either got to be major, minor, diminshed, or amodal. And as it's peppered with 2nds, 3rds and 6ths, and it's not diminished, you gotta plump for major or minor!
and yes it's an unresolved F, so does it resolve to C major or A minor, that's the choice. Both "work" so the question is, which did they have in mind?

mike_l

viz said:

Thing is, it's either got to be major, minor, diminshed, or amodal. And as it's peppered with 2nds, 3rds and 6ths, and it's not diminished, you gotta plump for major or minor!
and yes it's an unresolved F, so does it resolve to C major or A minor, that's the choice. Both "work" so the question is, which did they have in mind?

They probably weren't thinking C major or A minor when it was written, they were probably thinking "that sounds good, we'll use it"

viz

Wrong. I just asked them and they said "hey Viz, we wrote it in Am, intentionally - cheers mate".

mike_l

viz said:

Wrong. I just asked them and they said "hey Viz, we wrote it in Am, intentionally - cheers mate".

Are you sure you didn't dream that? together with the other dreams of Ms Nicks you have?

viz

it is a possibility ...

close2u

it's amazing how the absence of something (a tonic, a resolve chord) can leave something so ambiguous and vague ... and maybe that is its power ... I have read that when Stevie Nicks brought it along to the band everyone thought it was unfinished, a 2-chord vamp ... but then Lyndsey Buckingham played over it in a way that made it sound like it had more going on, more sections

I don't mind giving up my thought that it is F lydian if it isn't ... although I think that there isn't a definite either way other than saying C Major is the parent major scale ...

I just wish our keyboard player would give up playing his over-fussy arpeggios (including Aminor chords) that sound so wrong

viz

You're right, he absolutely should refrain from lumping Am all over it, that's the whole point imo. As you say, it's the absence of the tonic that makes it so unresoved and dreamy and circular sounding.

frankus

The quickest way to resolve an argument is violence - I'd recommend a chop to the neck ... push the head down punch it a couple of times, kick one the back legs so he's kneeling then twist his head off. There are other approaches replace the chop with a hook ... but in the main ...

ThePrettyDamned

I dno't do theory (if anyone can help me identify the key of that Andy James song I posted...) but I just recorded the two chords as a backing on the piano, and found that you can make nice melodies ending on a C, G, F or A.  

So ambiguous.  I'd just play until you get the sound you want out of it, as you're improvising.  If you were composing for a feel, or learning note for note (as I will be with the AJ song) it can help to know the key just to have a good idea of where you want to be,

Cacofonix

I think Dreams is in Am, based on the discussions above. 

Whilst not a hard and fast rule, lack of resolution as a device usually revolves around the fourth (ie the F), which drives the key back to C, but as the tonality is minor, creating the wistfulness of the piece, the relative minor of C is the key, so Am.

It is more implied than stated though, which I think someone already said adds to the dreamlike quality.  There was an interesting piece on Fleetwood Mac in the papers recently (last 6 months anyway, talking about the unresolved tensions in the band at the time of Rumours. 

Also, not really looked at the chord structures of FM songs generally (note to self: do so), but the more common chord structure is the 4,5,1 and that would fit here.

Tunez

Wow.

 There's a lot of shakey analysis here. The tune is modal, F Lydian. Whilst Lydian is a major mode, in that the 3rd degree is a major third above the tonic, modal harmony exists alongside the strictly major/minor paradigm. Often modal cadences feel less resolved than their more traditional (to western ears) major/minor colleagues, but this is part of their purpose. In short, and for the purpose of meaningful analysis at least, it is unhelpful to think of the tune as Am or C even though it's constituent melody and harmony are diatonic to these signatures. 

As an aside and to counter an assertion made here and in other threads on this site, music theory has it's origins in the analysis of functioning music and not the reverse. 'Rules of harmony' is a Victorian notion which remains, stubbornly, with us. In truth what we really have are a number of, very useful, models of explanation for the logic of good practice observed in the works of received masters. Nothing is set in stone and each model very much serves the time for which it was intended. The best explanations of tonal musical harmony and use that I have ever read are Arnold Schenberg's 'Structural Functions of Harmony' and 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition'...awesome books, it doesn't matter what style you're playing, knowledge is power!

meltedbuzzbox

thisisguitar said:

...Also, piano players often believe the score is god. They are often wrong!

This is why they are called pianists 

plangertinyclanger

Hello, newbie to the board here! Really enjoying this discussion, as I was teaching a student this song a few months ago and I had the same sort of argument in my head. 

To me, the verses are there to serve building tension and setting a sort of mood, which only briefly resolves in the chorus, bringing in the A minor tones. But the song is not in A minor - it sounds slightly moody, but more dreamy than sad. For this reason if I had to choose ONE tonality for the whole song to be described as being in, it would have to be F Lydian. 

Personally, I don't hear the C major possibilities at all, even though yes technically the correct tones are in there. The F Lydian influence in the verse is the only prominent major tonality I hear. 

I think this is a perfect song to have a theory discussion about because it's not as simple as it seems, and everybody seems to hear it slightly differently. 

Hurray for Fleetwood Mac!  

GuyBoden

A lot of modern compositions don't have key centres, some move through chord sequences using voicings with leading notes to link the chords. (voice leading?)

FMaj#11 - Emin9 - EbMaj#11 - Dmin11 - BbMaj#11 - Aminb13 - AbMaj7 - Gmin11 - GbMaj7