Why do Fenders sound crap cranked?

Fatfingers

I just tried my newly overhauled 1976 Pro Reverb. Sounds lovely - great bluesy sound. But when I tried it with my Airbrake attenuator, and cranked the master to 10, even with only mild attenuation, it sounds awful. Really fuzzy and muddy.

So my question is, bearing in mind how similar old Marshalls are to old Fenders, and bearing in mind how brilliant they sound when cranked, why do Fenders sound so shit?

The only obvious physical difference is the very small output transformer. This is 45watt amp. A Marshall JTM 45 has a much bigger OT. Is this this anything to do with it?

strtdv

Sounds like your amp doesn't like the attenuator. Fenders sound lovely cranked (although master on 10 might be a bit high).

Also, is it an Ultralinear one? in which case I'm not sure what you'll gain by cranking it.

thecolourbox

I prefer the sound of a fender cranked to a Marshall cranked

richardhomer

Fenders have - for want of a better description - a wider bandwidth; they have a lot of bass and a lot of treble, while Marshalls tend to be more mid-focused. Put simply, more middly amps tend to sound more musical when driven - Fenders can get a bit farty/ragged.

Sassafras

Nothing wrong with the sound of a cranked Princeton or Deluxe Reverb or even a Twin if you can stand the volume.

ICBM

Fatfingers said:

I just tried my newly overhauled 1976 Pro Reverb. Sounds lovely - great bluesy sound. But when I tried it with my Airbrake attenuator, and cranked the master to 10, even with only mild attenuation, it sounds awful. Really fuzzy and muddy.

So my question is, bearing in mind how similar old Marshalls are to old Fenders, and bearing in mind how brilliant they sound when cranked, why do Fenders sound so shit?

The only obvious physical difference is the very small output transformer. This is 45watt amp. A Marshall JTM 45 has a much bigger OT. Is this this anything to do with it?

The Airbrake isn't a good attenuator for Fenders, especially not 4-ohm ones and Ultra-Linear ones even more so - it's purely resistive and the impedance is too high. A 4-ohm Hotplate would be better. The Airbrake is much better with amps like Voxes which need a higher impedance and have no negative feedback (NFB).

Even if it's not an Ultra-Linear model (a '76 could be either), SF Fenders have a lot of negative feedback and a couple of other characteristics which makes them a bit harsh and fuzzy when they do into overdrive.

Interestingly, they are one of the few amps where it is pure power-valve overdrive you're getting. That classic rock crunch overdrive is actually more typical of phase inverter and tone stack driver distortion, contrary to what the 'non-MV amps use power valve distortion' myth says. Usually it's a mix of both.

lustycourtier

cranked or 'cranked?' Ive never known anything sound amazing on 10, but a proper AC30, deluxe, Bluesbreaker etc on 7 or so all sound heaven. 

Loobs

A cranked deluxe reverb with a Les Paul sounds great.

Loobs

A cranked deluxe reverb with a Les Paul sounds great.

MattG

lustycourtier said:

cranked or 'cranked?' Ive never known anything sound amazing on 10, but a proper AC30, deluxe, Bluesbreaker etc on 7 or so all sound heaven. 

I'm sorry but i have to disagree both my Swart and Z-wreck sound at their absolute best when pushed up to 11

Gassage

Fenders dislike attenuation more than any other mainstream brand. They just don't like. Nor do Hiwatts- who HATE attenuators.

ICBM is also right re the inherent UL thing- they are meant to sound the same, however weren't UL PR's 70w not 40w? Can't recall.

All you need to do is add a TS9. Then crank it.

Maybe layer a few bits of input signal out by using a good comp and just using an eq to take a few dB out.

Jimbro66

lustycourtier said:

cranked or 'cranked?' Ive never known anything sound amazing on 10, but a proper AC30, deluxe, Bluesbreaker etc on 7 or so all sound heaven. 

Yeah, a lot of amps seem to sound best at about 7 - 8 and beyond that get flubby or woolly or fizzy or whatever (which is how some folks like 'em, admittedly). Heard a 70s Traynor recently that sounded great at 3/4 power and like a wet fart beyond that.

BGG

Loobs said:

A cranked deluxe reverb with a Les Paul sounds great.

Or a DGT

ICBM

Having seen the other thread now, it's not an Ultra-Linear model.

They still don't sound good cranked up into a purely resistive attenuator of the wrong impedance though - it's not so much that they don't like attenuation, just that they don't like being loaded like that. Some amps work *much* better with some attenuators than others, just like some amps work much better with some pedals than others. Don't assume they're all the same.

Fatfingers

It sounds sweet with the MV on three or four, and I don't need it to sound great when flat out, I'm just interested in the difference between it and a Marshall or similar. My JCM 800 sounded bloody marvellous flat out with the Airbrake.

shaunm

SRV sounded really rather marvolous with a cranked Fender amp. Not really fair though as he'd have sounded brilliant on a moderately loud line 6.

As has been said it's the atenuation that is making things sound a little ropey.

raulduke

Try a (nearly) cranked Tweed Deluxe and you may change your opinion. They sound spectacular.

At full volume you get a nice fuzz tone too (listen to Cortez the Killer).

ICBM

raulduke said:

Try a (nearly) cranked Tweed Deluxe and you may change your opinion. They sound spectacular.

At full volume you get a nice fuzz tone too (listen to Cortez the Killer).

Strictly speaking that's not a cranked Tweed Deluxe though - it's a Tweed Deluxe fitted with 6L6s, fitted with a line-out socket and run into at least a couple of bigger amps, including (possibly at different times, I can't remember) a Magnatone and a huge solid-state Baldwin.

It's also not everyone's idea of a great cranked tone, I have to admit - a lot of people do find it both harsh and farty. (I love it though.)

raulduke

True, although that is for his live work, in the studio he just records just the straight (though 6L6) Tweed Deluxe.

I know what you mean though. I love my Deluxe, but it might be an acquired taste.

Cirrus

Fatfingers said:

It sounds sweet with the MV on three or four, and I don't need it to sound great when flat out, I'm just interested in the difference between it and a Marshall or similar. My JCM 800 sounded bloody marvellous flat out with the Airbrake.

a jcm800 has a very tight, bright preamp so with the amp cranked the power section doesn't really have anything to flub out on, it's the low frequencies overloading the power section that quite often make loud amps fart out and sound bad.

hotpickups

I have a story that I may have posted here about I'm not sure.

I Jamed with a band not too long ago and for some unknown reason they wanted me to be louder. I say an unknown reason because my J20 is friggin loud cranked and have never needed to do that before but they insisted thinking the band's guitarist's 30 watt amp was louder than mine (fool). Although my amp was compressing it was still articulate so I would say I love fender based amps cranked. I won't be doing that too many times though as I value my ears