Frustration.

viz

I think it's ok to practise something slowly, if you're using the exact technique you want to use when you're at max speed. For myself though, I know that I'm an extremely sloppy player and I use a load of shortcuts and slurred moves at speed - in fact that might be what gives us our unique sounds. I'm not sure I'd even be able to replicate them slowly! Conversely I could however probably play the correct notes themselves with clarity and beautiful technique slowly, but then I'd never manage to replicate that at speed! Ain't that the way. But if you want to be a really good player, I guess that's the pursuit you need to have.

guitarfishbay

thomasross20 said:

frankus said:

carlos said:

@thomasross20 is right, too. Technique for playing slowly is not the same as for playing fast. There's a point where practicing something slowly will never get you there.

As someone who does a variety of fine and gross motor activities slowly in preparation and practice for moving swiftly, I'd rather like some morsel of evidence to substantiate this claim.

At slow speeds you can get away with crap technique. 

Playing fast, you tense up. If you can hone in on that and eradicate it, you can play faster and better. 

You CAN then use that same technique at slower speeds, but I do think it's a tad different. I'm not explaining it well.

No you can't, or rather you shouldn't let yourself.  I think you're over focusing on speed as a goal.

Accuracy, timing, and muting technique still need to be spot on when playing slowly.  I actually think they're more a mark of how proficient a player is than maximum speed.

Yes you do need to practice playing fast as well, but there is still a lot of benefit to starting slow and speeding up when ready.

thomasross20

@viz - that's what I like about Slash's playing. Technically he is amazing but a little rough around the edges which gives his playing a distinct sound, IMO. 

I'm not saying I play with crap technique when playing slow. You know what I'm saying, I hope!

thomasross20

The key key key key key to EVERYTHING..... is honing in on tension and eradicating it. 

This one thing alone will improve your playing by 10000%.

octatonic

thomasross20 said:

The key key key key key to EVERYTHING..... is honing in on tension and eradicating it. 

This one thing alone will improve your playing by 10000%.

No, it isn't- well, not necessarily.

This might have been your issue but tension was never a problem for me and often not a problem for people.

Tension is usually only an issue for folks that are trying to accelerate their playing beyond where it naturally can go.

Some learn to play through the tension but plenty of players take their time and it isn't much of a problem at all.

I'm kinda at the point of wanting to know your background now.

Have you taught guitar?

How many people have you taught?

How did you learn to play- were you self taught or did you study (privately or at an institution?)

Speed is a byproduct of accuracy.

thomasross20

I've been playing about 16 years now, got lessons at school to start with then did it on my own - 10 hours a day at one point. I just play a LOT. Did the whole Vai/Satch thing, learnt my (jazz - ugh!) music theory etc. I don't teach - I'm selfish (?) in that I just want to advance my own playing. 

By tension, I don't mean you're hand is aching. Just that there's a resistance there - it's not naturally at ease. 

Wait, haven't we been on the same forums since intermusic days - you know me, no? 

Surely you've heard about my album!?

Playing well at speed is a by product of accuracy

If you can play it ok slow but not fast I bet that when you go fast, your mind isn't keeping up, your hand becomes a bit more tense and you mess up notes (not you, personally). 

I heard the tension thing from some video and then it truly struck me how it was the root of most problems when trying to play accurately and at speed (other big part being knowing the fretboard inside out so you play with confidence). I see it all the time. Especially bad in people in guitar shops and learners. To me it's a fact of nature lol - the pros' technique is fluid, fast and accurate. You can't play accurate if there's tension in your playing. (Another big thing is the "follow through".... see my blog). And you can play accurate at slow speed... but then why does it go to crap at high speed? The accuracy was there... so what's changed? I bet 100% it's inaccurate technique and tension causing the problems. 

I'm no Malmsteen, by the way lol! Check my website out (see links at bottom of post) for examples of my playing.

Does it matter if I've taught (not being arsey there!). I know some great and some guff players who've gone to study music. The great ones have come out really great, I must admit! 

thomasross20

The follow-through ... people having trouble alternate picking because they limit the range their hand moves. They're not following through properly, like a golfer swing back and then forward. You can minimise the motions to build up speed later but if you don't have the follow through and natural feeling that gives you, the hand will feel juddery (tension) and the technique isn't there. 

Same thing for people trying to use their pinky for legato, especially up at the high register. They squeeze the pinky in toward the thumb side of their hand but they should naturally push it outward. I see it all the time. 

I'm still improving my own technique and probably always will be! My main aim these days though (apart from finishing the album) is creating more of my own music and licks, mastering more of the fretboard (I know the modes at every point on the fretboard for any key all over the fretboard but it could be more fluid) and playing with the band. I embarked upon jazz and flamenco at one point but was stretching myself too thin. 

This was me in 2007 (yes, mistakes, but not too bad given length of time I'd been playing). I can see the tension in my hands even from that Eugene video.

This is me today (last one is no showcase lol, just demoing pickups):

I'm much more of a legato player these days.

If you've played slow blues with perfect slow technique for 20 years... I think you'd have trouble playing anything at seed even after 20 years. I reckon you need to practice at speed. 

FYI I'm no authority - like I say in my blogs... players are always advancing... all you can do is take advice, and with a pinch of salt!

Actually, the best thing anybody can do is just play. Lots. I wish I had more time!

It's silly but one thing I'm finding tricky right now is the intro to AC/DC:Thunderstruck!! Amazing the little things that catch you out!

viz

Awesome playing dude

thomasross20

Thanks!! Unfortunately the last 6 months has mostly been spent programming drums - ugh!!

Always scary putting clips up though as there are some monsters on here (including you guys)!

octatonic

thomasross20 said:

I've been playing about 16 years now, got lessons at school to start with then did it on my own - 10 hours a day at one point. I just play a LOT. Did the whole Vai/Satch thing, learnt my (jazz - ugh!) music theory etc. I don't teach - I'm selfish (?) in that I just want to advance my own playing. 

By tension, I don't mean you're hand is aching. Just that there's a resistance there - it's not naturally at ease. 

Wait, haven't we been on the same forums since intermusic days - you know me, no? 

Playing well at speed is a by product of accuracy

If you can play it ok slow but not fast I bet that when you go fast, your mind isn't keeping up, your hand becomes a bit more tense and you mess up notes (not you, personally). 

I heard the tension thing from some video and then it truly struck me how it was the root of most problems when trying to play accurately and at speed (other big part being knowing the fretboard inside out so you play with confidence). I see it all the time. Especially bad in people in guitar shops and learners. To me it's a fact of nature lol - the pros' technique is fluid, fast and accurate. You can't play accurate if there's tension in your playing. (Another big thing is the "follow through".... see my blog). And you can play accurate at slow speed... but then why does it go to crap at high speed? The accuracy was there... so what's changed? I bet 100% it's inaccurate technique and tension causing the problems. 

I'm no Malmsteen, by the way lol! Check my website out (see links at bottom of post) for examples of my playing.

Does it matter if I've taught (not being arsey there!). I know some great and some guff players who've gone to study music. The great ones have come out really great, I must admit! 

Yes, it does matter if you've taught or not- because you'd be exposed to a lot more players problems.

So far you've only had to work it out for yourself, which isn't enough data to be able to make a comprehensive assessment of how to learn how to play.

The only person you've taught how to play is yourself and different people have different issues.

What you are doing is extrapolating out your own experience and extending to being relevant to everyone else and it doesn't really work like that.

Teaching is about finding a solution that works for the individual.

I'm not wishing to discount your input here- you are entitled to your position and entitled to voice it as well, but having more than 30 years playing experience and more than 20 years teaching experience I know how most people are best suited to learn new musical material.

No-one can really accuse me of being a slow player but when it comes to learning new material it is best to do it a a tempo that you can play without making mistakes (either chunking or all the way through).

I'm not the only one to say this- I've never come across a professional guitar teacher who teaches any other way, even guys like Martin Goulding (a proper shredder) teach this method.

You start playing at a tempo you can deal with (as in the fastest you can do it without making significant errors) and you accelerate by around 5bpm a week, maybe 10bpm tops.

This is a pretty established practice- ICMP/Guitar X teach this way. GIT teach this way too.

thomasross20

Ah fair game! I always listen to all sources of info - especially from people who've been playing longer than me (and teach!).

I agree you should largely play accurately and in time but I do believe if you want to push the boundaries you need to venture into those boundaries when you're not ready (baptism of fire). There are lots of new ways of thinking coming out now. What I'm talking about - lots of other people are talking about the same thing. And look at Troy Grady's series on picking which is revolutionary IMO. Everybody learns in a different way. Some greats can't read music. Some have never practised with a metronome. They all pick differently and have different nuances. I'm definitely not saying my way is the best way but I genuinely believe the mantra regarding tension. 

I've played something at very low speed. Then insanely fast speed with errors, found out where the tension is, adjusted my technique over the course of weeks (and with excruciating detail for the nuances) and then absolutely smashed it without having to do increments by improving the core technique by eradicating the tension. (I did grade 8 after 14 months starting playing by doing this). I haven't always managed it because when you get stuck in one way of playing, sometimes you don't even realise there's a tension there. So yeah, I've had to do it the way you talk about. And I still do it that way - it's a bit of a mixture. I'm still learning and you've more experience though (great clip, by the way!) so maybe I'm talking rubbish lol. I know the established practices but I'm always looking out for other ways to do things too. I'd suggest any learners listen to you over me, though! I'm definitely not advocating not playing accurately at low speeds and building it up - that's a good thing.

EDIT - hope you haven't taken offence over anything I've written. Not my style! I just really enjoy playing and get excited by it - sorry for the long paragraphs lol!

mike_l

octatonic said:

The case for slowing down is two fold.

First, you understand subdivisions of the beat much better when playing slowly.

Building something up slowly is always learned more solidly than something learned at tempo.

Also, it stops you from putting the wrong thing into muscle memory.

Cant go much slower. I keep putting an extra note in where there shouldn't be one.

I've moved away from repeating when I keep making the mistakes, and do an exercise I can play correctly. Theoretically putting my subconscious in the "I can do this right" frame, rather than  the "I can't do this" one. 

It's most frustrating as I know I can play more complex pieces, and struggle with a simple riff.

octatonic

I haven't taken offence at all and I also don't wish to set myself up as the god of all knowledge.

I've taught a lot of people though- I don't know how many- at least 30 a year for the time I've been teaching.

I'm not saying playing fast doesn't have its place- it does- if you are playing fast music then you need to find a way to get it ramped up.

In the initial stages though, inputting the notes at a comfortable speed is simply the best way to do it.

Once you have it in the brain and in the hands (so cognitively memorised and in muscle memory) then you can start accelerating the tempo.

If you'd like to test it, try learning the piece of music I linked to (Donna Lee by Charlie Parker) at a fast tempo.

I learned it a long time ago- in 2 bar chunks at around 30 ppm and worked it up to tempo in around a month, playing it about an hour a day.

I don't know how anyone could learn it anywhere near the 200bpm that most people play it at (same tempo I played it at in the mp3).

mike_l

DLM said:

Who says the riff is all that simple? What is it?

It's an alternate picked exercise. Literally the first in the book.......

Alternating between 1/16th open A, and A5, G5 and D/F# chords.

octatonic

mike_l said:

octatonic said:

The case for slowing down is two fold.

First, you understand subdivisions of the beat much better when playing slowly.

Building something up slowly is always learned more solidly than something learned at tempo.

Also, it stops you from putting the wrong thing into muscle memory.

Cant go much slower. I keep putting an extra note in where there shouldn't be one.

I've moved away from repeating when I keep making the mistakes, and do an exercise I can play correctly. Theoretically putting my subconscious in the "I can do this right" frame, rather than  the "I can't do this" one. 

It's most frustrating as I know I can play more complex pieces, and struggle with a simple riff.

Ok, chunk it then.

Take two quarter notes either side of your mistake and play it across two bars (so a 5 note pattern with 3 notes of rest).

Play this 20 times in a row on loop.

Repeat until you stop making the mistake.

Then reintegrate it into the piece.

thomasross20

I'm afraid jazz isn't my passion lol  

It's cool, though - all good

mike_l

@octatonic I'm pretty much chunking it already. The first regular mistake is on the "E" of 2E&A  as in the A5 chord sits on 2E, then back to open A for & A. I keep hitting the open A when bringing the pick back up for the down-picked &.

Thanks everyone for their input, I was more frustrated at repeatedly getting it wrong than anything else.

I've decided that now I have a job which lets me have an evening, my guitar playing standard should raise. I'm also well aware that it'll take more than a couple of hours practise on the first week.

octatonic

thomasross20 said:

I'm afraid jazz isn't my passion lol  

It's cool, though - all good

Neither is it mine, I'm primarily a rock player. I can tell you though that I learned so much about harmony from transcribing that piece.

mike_l

carlos said:

 

@mike_l sorry for hijacking!

Similarly, in guitar playing I "guess" that due to way strings vibrate and react differently to playing slowly and fast (frequency of strokes on same string) that the feel is different. Also, won't practising too slowly give you a bad "string navigation" for a phrase? At slow speed you could downpick all the notes, use simpler left-hand fingering, etc. but that won't cut it when you speed up. I roadmap it slowly and then try to jump into however fast I can do it with some accuracy. Then just build the muscle memory and pace from that point upwards.

As @Clarky has said in the past, when you slow down, you slow down everything, not just the actual notes played. So if the part is alt picked, the picking has to be alternate picked as well. Literally the whole process is in "slow-motion".

So something alternate picked at 40 BPM has exactly the same hand motions as something alternate picked at 80BPM, and 120BPM and so on. Once I got my head round that, my picking improved. I'm now trying to get my technique polished.

Clarky

I make a distinction between playing slowly and playing in slow motion..

because in slow motion, I'm trying to get everything relative to everything else

that even includes the rate of vibrato, bends and slides with respect to the tempo of the metro

and picking patterns, transitions from one position on the next to another and technique / technical transitions..

this is important because it encompasses more than simply playing a given string of notes slowly..

both hands have to nail that part completely by paying attention to all of the details that would be used at full speed..