Klone Army

EdGrip

My favourite Pedal With Laughable Component And Labour Cost To Retail Price Ratio used to be the ZVEX Super Hard-on, but it's been roundly thrashed and its title snatched away by the Emerson Em-Drive. 

I mean, it's a hundred and forty quid, for fuck's sake.

Frankus, if your conversation sounds like your forum posts read, They may have a legitimate point.

Dave_Mc

Yeah I've come across that one before, needless to say TGP has been going wild over it too. Supposedly completely transparent, but according to a guy I talked to (hopefully ICBM, sporky etc. can confirm) it has a pretty low input impedance so it's actually not transparent... at all. The clips I heard were definitely not transparent. )

Sporky

I had a quick look, and it's £100 ($160) in the US.

Of that the retailer will take somewhere around 30-40% (split the difference and say £35), leaving £65.

3PDT - £3ish, £8 if it's a decent one - let's assume it's a cheapo.
Pair of jacks and a DC socket - £10 total for ones worth using (otherwise you risk too many returns) - it states that the jacks are USA switchcraft
Enclosure - looks like a Hammond, £5 assuming decent bulk
Powder coating and silk screening - £5 in batches
Pair of CTS pots - £5 a pair?
Board and components - £3 - though those PIO caps may be quite expensive, depends what they are.
Davies knobs - £2 the pair

So that's £33, leaving £32.

£32 to assemble it, package it, post it out to the retailers, manage any returns and try to make a living. Screw that for a living. Even if all the parts came to £5 you'd be earning £60 before tax on a pedal that probably takes an hour or so to assemble. That's got to cover tax, premises, insurance, food, heat and power and everything else.

I've lost count of how many times I've done a breakdown like this and demonstrated that the boutiquers and small builders are not laughing all the way to their private banks. The component cost is almost irrelevant for hand made things.

EdGrip

It just feels disingenuous to charge more for something that falls within "consumer electronics", and is little more electrically complex than a box-shaped patch cable, than for - say - a medium-spec soundcard. (I'm trying to pick an example where there pool of potential buyers is roughly similar to the ranks of guitarists.)

It's entirely up to you to produce the thing by the most expensive means possible (hand-making it yourself), and it's entirely up to the buyers to decide to buy it in spite of that. If the buying numbers are reliable, get a factory run done and sell them off the shelf - surely the buyers will get better value for money, and you will free up your own valuable time to pursue other ventures or designs, dealing with admin and returns aside? Boutique pedal builders are not doing us a favour by making us pedals - we're doing them a favour by subsidising their inefficient factory. I strongly suspect that in the case of many of the most popular boutique designs, if you halved the retail price you would sell more than twice as many units. As an industry, it's backed itself into a corner a bit by making "hand-wired" a must-have and "factory-made" anathema. As long as it perpetuates that thinking, the boutique pedal industry inherently stymies its own possibilities for expansion. It's a bit of an odd one.    

I feel uncomfortable about the insinuation (not by you, Sporky - but it does crop up, and this thread has reminded me of it) that the hobbyist-seller is somehow "ruining it for everyone else". It comes up in other fields (photography is a good example). If people want to fund their hobby by being paid for it, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. If you want to fund your photography GAS by taking photography gigs here and there at rates lower than the pros, you're quite entitled to do so. It might well be that you've got more of a knack than some of the pros, which will really wind them up - that's their problem. 

EdGrip

I half-want to delete my post. It seems a bit rude, but I think there are points in there somewhere.

ICBM

It does sound self-contradictory, but I agree with most or all of those points, from both of you.

For what it's worth I own several ZVex pedals. Half the value of ownership is in the paint jobs - they're artworks that happen to make cool noises as much as they are guitar pedals.

And this from someone with a well-known dislike of overhyped 'hand built' products...

Bizarrely enough I like properly-designed, buffered pedals that work reliably in every context - and I also like ridiculously crude things that interact in all the wrong, but somehow musical, ways with the guitar, the cable capacitance, the colour of the carpet and whatever else. I have no idea why.

Sporky

EdGrip said:

It just feels disingenuous to charge more for something that falls within "consumer electronics", and is little more electrically complex than a box-shaped patch cable, than for - say - a medium-spec soundcard.

I understand that completely. £100 is an awful lot for a pedal that's just a transistor, three resistors, two caps, a switch, two pots and an LED in a box. I also understand the idea that things being expensive because of how they're made isn't inherently justification for their price (it is explanation, perhaps, but that's not quite the same).

The problem (as much as it is one) is that the boutique market arose because of consumer interest - guitarists as a whole are quite keen on blood sweat and tears having gone into the tools they use. Witness the endless (and largely spurious) debates about hand-made vs CNC'd guitars - there is as much focus on the method as the result. BTW - I mean that as a throwaway example, not a new topic in this discussion (though no problem with someone starting a separate one!).

Your post doesn't come across as rude to me.

And I do believe that the paid-amateur is distorting the market, though I wouldn't express it as "ruining it for everyone else", it's just that having a day-job that pays all the essentials does tend to make people underestimate the value of their spare time compared to their paid time. I think that's a matter for the consumer of the product or service; do they want lowest price, or do they want someone who can afford to put things right if they go wrong? Or, rather, where on that continuum are they happy to put their money?

randomhandclaps

EdGrip said:

It just feels disingenuous to charge more for something that falls within "consumer electronics",

I completely see your point and it's not rude, it's a perfectly valid argument.  The thing about it being within consumer electronics is that those who are buying them are either not comfortable building one themselves are opting to buy one made by ZVEX for another reason.  Usually a lot of the bullshit, although encouraged by makers, is generated by consumer's ears being influenced by price and hype.

There are guitar builders who assemble pre-made parts which is something we can view as 'we can all do that'.  It is the fine tuning skill and experience as well as the support they can provide which separates them from the layman, and not everyone wants to get their hands dirty.  Sadly for these guys it is getting increasingly difficult to earn a living as the prices they need to charge can appear unbalanced when compared to factory line competitors.

Smaller professional builders are not opting to build pedals by hand as a for a deliberate cost or time consuming reason, it by and large can provide more consistent results than a mass-production line - which is evident when you start opening up a lot of Joyo pedals.  If you take @Sporky's earlier comment about the price of producing a run of Valvesporkers, on top of this he could not afford for products to be repeatedly returned so he has to ensure his every effort is going in to making it as solid and durable as possible - and that does take both skill and time.  In contrast Blackstar launched their first bunch of pedals with enormous marketing knowing the far east distance-production and the saving on cheaper component increased the possibility of unit failure - which did happen but the investment was in place to cushion that.  If someone approached Sporky and said we would like to invest a huge sum of money in the Valvesporker, transfer production to the far east and cost save on local components then undoubtedly he could drop the price and ironically would be making far more profit per unit than producing them himself individually by hand.

To a builder smaller, simpler jobs are usually the most awkward to deal with.  I find true bypass loop pedals to be the bane of my life.  I get a request for one in a plain enclosure and it becomes a real challenge to price.  It's a switch and jacks in a box which anyone semi-competent with a soldering iron could put together so charging too much doesn't sit well with me morally.  By the same token it has to be worth my while time-wise as I could be making something else more profitable.  There was a guy on EBay for a long while selling 'volume boxes' as attenuators (can't find him on them now) and charging £45 and claiming them as some piece of his own revolutionary design - it wouldn't sit well with me but plenty of people bought them and judging by his feedback were very happy.

 

frankus

Some of my favourite pedals are low parts count pedals - I tend to think the maker knew what he was doing selecting the parts he did.

I've made 3 Orange Squeezers so far - I've improved my understanding each time - what components are critical, which can be messed with to improve sustain or attack - I imagine a genuine maker attempts many many many more experimental versions before commiting to make a pedal - and I view the cost of the pedal to be mitigating some of that time.

It's like pirating albums - it didn't take the band 50 minutes to compose, write the songs, rehearse them, evolve them... they didn't record them using little indian babies as sound engineers in shanty town studios on an old binatone tape player.

Likewise the cost of a pedal isn't based on it's parts count.

Bill Finnegan used to spend an awful lot of time trying to improve the Klon, different pcbs, components, that's dedication and professionalism - you can buy a copy off ebay but it might not have had the same rigourous testing you can expect of a man who deeply cares about his products reputation.

randomhandclaps

frankus said:

I've made 3 Orange Squeezers so far - I've improved my understanding each time - what components are critical, which can be messed with to improve sustain or attack - I imagine a genuine maker attempts many many many more experimental versions before commiting to make a pedal - and I view the cost of the pedal to be mitigating some of that time.

Precisely, and in parts used in both development or lost to mistakes we learn from the cost adds up and it is indeed not as simple as comparing parts to the finished article.

Dave_Mc

Sporky said:

I understand that completely. £100 is an awful lot for a pedal that's just a transistor, three resistors, two caps, a switch, two pots and an LED in a box. I also understand the idea that things being expensive because of how they're made isn't inherently justification for their price (it is explanation, perhaps, but that's not quite the same).

I was more complaining about the fact that it's being hyped to hell when it's a ridiculously simple circuit, and is being hyped as being transparent etc. when a quick listen to the prymaxe vids shows it's anything but.

+1 on what EdGrip said- I sympathise with the fact that it's probably not fair for hobbyists to be subsidising what they're doing with their day job (and also other countries with lower labour costs making stuff made in the west seem expensive), but that happens in all fields of work, not just pedals. Also I don't see how you could ban the former, either, because using that logic you wouldn't be allowed to cut your own grass or wash your own car, taken to its logical conclusion (or at least do it as a favour for a mate).

frankus said:

Bill Finnegan used to spend an awful lot of time trying to improve the Klon, different pcbs, components, that's dedication and professionalism - you can buy a copy off ebay but it might not have had the same rigourous testing you can expect of a man who deeply cares about his products reputation.

I thought the rumours were that he got someone else to do the research? No idea if it's true or not...

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky;36557" said:

I had a quick look, and it's £100 ($160) in the US.



Of that the retailer will take somewhere around 30-40% (split the difference and say £35), leaving £65.



3PDT - £3ish, £8 if it's a decent one - let's assume it's a cheapo.

Pair of jacks and a DC socket - £10 total for ones worth using (otherwise you risk too many returns) - it states that the jacks are USA switchcraft

Enclosure - looks like a Hammond, £5 assuming decent bulk

Powder coating and silk screening - £5 in batches

Pair of CTS pots - £5 a pair?

Board and components - £3 - though those PIO caps may be quite expensive, depends what they are.

Davies knobs - £2 the pair



So that's £33, leaving £32.



£32 to assemble it, package it, post it out to the retailers, manage any returns and try to make a living. Screw that for a living. Even if all the parts came to £5 you'd be earning £60 before tax on a pedal that probably takes an hour or so to assemble. That's got to cover tax, premises, insurance, food, heat and power and everything else.



I've lost count of how many times I've done a breakdown like this and demonstrated that the boutiquers and small builders are not laughing all the way to their private banks. The component cost is almost irrelevant for hand made things.

Wow. That's really put it all nicely into perspective for me.

I stand corrected.

Sporky

Dave_Mc said:

I was more complaining about the fact that it's being hyped to hell when it's a ridiculously simple circuit, and is being hyped as being transparent etc. when a quick listen to the prymaxe vids shows it's anything but.

I getcha.

ThePrettyDamned said:

Wow. That's really put it all nicely into perspective for me.

I stand corrected.

I didn't mean that you were wrong to think it was a lot of money (or even to think that it was too much money) - just wanted to demonstrate how £3 in components on the PCB turns into a £100 pedal.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

I was more complaining about the fact that it's being hyped to hell when it's a ridiculously simple circuit, and is being hyped as being transparent etc. when a quick listen to the prymaxe vids shows it's anything but.

I think "transparent" has become the new bullshit-indicator word.

Dave_Mc

^ LOL

Sporky said:

Dave_Mc said:

I was more complaining about the fact that it's being hyped to hell when it's a ridiculously simple circuit, and is being hyped as being transparent etc. when a quick listen to the prymaxe vids shows it's anything but.

I getcha.

Heartfeltdawn

randomhandclaps said:

I am thinking of starting a business selling clones of Klon clones.  Which would be the best Klon clone to clone?)

Seriously though, why are some companies, correctly in my opinion, pillarised for ripping off designs like the Timmy, yet the Klon is pilfered wholesale by some and it's considered acceptable?

I am truly interested in what people think.  I know the price of the original puts it out of reach of most etc and I have no issue with someone making up a clone or two and selling it on.  However many makers have made a tidy profit 'mass' producing Klon clones without facing the wrath of internet forums.  Why is this?

Generally those who produce Klon clones are open and upfront about it. It's quite clear what 'their' pedal is copying. They produce a Klon copy that is more affordable for the average punter particularly given the absurd secondhand prices the originals now reach. One could also say that the Klon is no longer in production in its original form so you're not causing a loss of income for that company which no longer produces the pedal. You can't lose money on something you don't make any longer!

Something like the Jan Ray overdrive was promoted with a heap of hyperbole about R&D and development times. When a company does that and the pedal is revealed to be a Timmy knock-off in a fancy case with a couple of resistor changes, then it's time to take the piss out of that company.