FRFR - is there any point?

Fiftyshadesofjay

I think everyone gets a bit over hyped with all this FRFR stuff, and that's coming from someone who uses a modeller most of the time.

In my opinion you're normally emulating the chain of a valve amp right? So in my situation I might -

Listen through studio monitors.
Listen through in ears with Kemper to FOH
Listen via a real cab and power amp with Kemper to FOH

Now in all these situations the result is the same as if I had a mic'd amp, the kemper just does away with micing a physical amp really.

What I struggle to get is people that use a powered monitor as their sole monitoring and backline. It doesn't sound great on a big stage and it is pretty much useless when rehearsing in my experience. Or another way of looking at it is, who goes to their small rehearsal room, mic's there amp outside and feeds the signal into a powered monitor in the room so they can hear themselves? Because that's what you're emulating in this case.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

The one thing that is commonly said about FRFR solutions is that they're not as directional or beamy as guitar cabs. Any opinions on this J??

I think they tend to suffer less from tone shift as you move off-axis, since the problem with guitar speakers is the 'treble beam' when you're directly in line with the driver. (Read Jay Mitchell's explanation of why this happens, if you haven't already - it's not due to treble 'radiating from the centre cap' as often thought.)

In theory a FRFR cab with a horn tweeter and the high frequencies stopped from reaching the bass driver should disperse the treble better. Most of them are still fairly directional though. Proper PA setups go to a lot of trouble with column arrays to try to stop it but you still end up having to point cabinets in a variety of directions to get even coverage in a big room.

Cabicular

In practice Drew it makes fuck all difference
If anything the dispersal is more annoying because it just disappears when you stick it anywhere near a drum kit
Also I'm finding that on stage (and this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone) all the high frequency is chewed up by he Cymbals and all the low frequency by the bass
Once you crank it up enough to hear the guitar you are in speaker blowing territory with the amount of bass and treble you're cranking through unless ... You shelve off all if the low and high frequencies to get it close to a normal guitar speaker
Out front things seem a bit better but we've been putting guitars through PA speakers for years

I'm really not getting the point of the cab in my environment but it's interested to hear the churchy mob are using them (I had no idea that was a thing until I got the Helix)

Roland

Let's separate FRFR from modelling. You can use a Helix/Kemper/Fractal without FRFR, but I don't know of anyone who is using FRFR without some sort of speaker modelling.

 

For several years I used an Axe FX through the return of a 2x12 valve combo. The reasons I now use a Matrix Q12 are:

1. weight, 

2. space in the car, 

3. not having to wait for the valves to cool before I start packing away,

4. volume. We put everything through the pa, and I only use the Q12 for monitoring. My "stage" volume is the same as I use in rehearsal and only a little more than I use at home.

digitalscream

I desperately wanted a FRFR setup for a long time, mainly because it'd mean that I could ditch the heavy rig and just carry a modeller with me.

There are, however, several problems with that:

1 - I'm beholden to the quality of the PA - without my own sound-generating equipment, if the PA's crap then I sound crap.

2 - In most venues on the toilet scene, monitors seem to be considered unimportant - they're the last thing on the list, and any old crap will do. If I can't hear myself properly, I'm bollocksed...again, my full rig on stage beats that.

3 - Modelling gear that you can trust enough to run FRFR is expensive; I can't afford two of them (eg AxeFX / Helix / Kemper), so if something goes wrong I've got no alternative means of making noise and the gig's over.

I can get around #2 by taking my own monitor, but a decent-quality monitor isn't going to be that much lighter than my guitar cab, thus defeating the point.

As noted in another thread...I'm going down the "lightweight guitar cab" route instead. Same functional result (as far as I need it), much less hassle and vastly cheaper.

John_A

@digitalscream - Regarding a back-up there's no reason it has to be the same as your main rig, my backup is a few pedals and a EHX Magnum 44, not perfect but I could get through a gig with it.

On another note Ive never seen a band in a small, pub sized venue that used modelling/FRFR that sounded great, I've seen loads of bands with cheap small valve amps that sounded excellent!

digitalscream

John_A said:

@digitalscream - Regarding a back-up there's no reason it has to be the same as your main rig, my backup is a few pedals and a EHX Magnum 44, not perfect but I could get through a gig with it.

On another note Ive never seen a band in a small, pub sized venue that used modelling/FRFR that sounded great, I've seen loads of bands with cheap small valve amps that sounded excellent!

You're right - it doesn't have to be the same. However, with no amp or speaker available to me (given the FRFR-ishness of the thing), I'd have to have another unit capable of a) FRFR, and b) running everything that I need for our set. By definition, that ain't gonna be cheap

Alnico

@Drew_FX

Thank you for not taking my comment the wrong way. Given the nature of the replies to this thread i was being genuine not looking for a cheap laugh, i just couldn't figure it out.

I don't know a lot about the technical side of sound so it' still a bit lost on me but having read some of the latest replies i am starting to get it.

I'm pretty sure it will never apply to me playing through a valve amp the way i do but learning is good.

Thanks again.

Drew_TNBD

Alnico said:

@Drew_FX

Thank you for not taking my comment the wrong way. Given the nature of the replies to this thread i was being genuine not looking for a cheap laugh, i just couldn't figure it out.

I don't know a lot about the technical side of sound so it' still a bit lost on me but having read some of the latest replies i am starting to get it.

I'm pretty sure it will never apply to me playing through a valve amp the way i do but learning is good.

Thanks again.

No worries bruv.

John_A

digitalscream said:

John_A said:

@digitalscream - Regarding a back-up there's no reason it has to be the same as your main rig, my backup is a few pedals and a EHX Magnum 44, not perfect but I could get through a gig with it.

On another note Ive never seen a band in a small, pub sized venue that used modelling/FRFR that sounded great, I've seen loads of bands with cheap small valve amps that sounded excellent!

You're right - it doesn't have to be the same. However, with no amp or speaker available to me (given the FRFR-ishness of the thing), I'd have to have another unit capable of a) FRFR, and b) running everything that I need for our set. By definition, that ain't gonna be cheap

I have an AMT cab emulator/IR player to run my pedals in to a monitor or FOH for such an eventuality, there are plenty of cheap options, the Joyo, tech-21 copy pedals sound pretty good straight into the PA, and are about £30

kjdowd

Drew_fx said:

Alnico said:

@Drew_FX

Thank you for not taking my comment the wrong way. Given the nature of the replies to this thread i was being genuine not looking for a cheap laugh, i just couldn't figure it out.

I don't know a lot about the technical side of sound so it' still a bit lost on me but having read some of the latest replies i am starting to get it.

I'm pretty sure it will never apply to me playing through a valve amp the way i do but learning is good.

Thanks again.

No worries bruv.

I remember scrolling through forums for a while trying to figure out what FRFR meant. Think I found it in an obscure article in the end! 

monquixote

I'd consider using it, but only because my band use in ears so it would be easier and lighter.

octatonic

There is a place for FRFR.

That place is far away from me.

Sporky

Drew_fx said:

Might want to look up Helen Money and Jo Quail.

I'll need to give Helen Money more of a listen. Jo Quail (as Sonver) is very good straight off. Ta.

olafgarten

digitalscream said:

I desperately wanted a FRFR setup for a long time, mainly because it'd mean that I could ditch the heavy rig and just carry a modeller with me.

There are, however, several problems with that:

1 - I'm beholden to the quality of the PA - without my own sound-generating equipment, if the PA's crap then I sound crap.

2 - In most venues on the toilet scene, monitors seem to be considered unimportant - they're the last thing on the list, and any old crap will do. If I can't hear myself properly, I'm bollocksed...again, my full rig on stage beats that.

3 - Modelling gear that you can trust enough to run FRFR is expensive; I can't afford two of them (eg AxeFX / Helix / Kemper), so if something goes wrong I've got no alternative means of making noise and the gig's over.

I can get around #2 by taking my own monitor, but a decent-quality monitor isn't going to be that much lighter than my guitar cab, thus defeating the point.

As noted in another thread...I'm going down the "lightweight guitar cab" route instead. Same functional result (as far as I need it), much less hassle and vastly cheaper.

Which ones can't you afford, the Helix and the Kemper are almost the same price.

Cabicular

I think he is saying a grand for a back up unit is a bit painful I think he's right

Sporky

olafgarten said:

Which ones can't you afford, the Helix and the Kemper are almost the same price.

I think Mr Scream means he cannot afford to have two - ie a main and a backup.

digitalscream

olafgarten said:

Which ones can't you afford, the Helix and the Kemper are almost the same price.

It's not a case of, "Which ones can't I afford?".

It's a case of, "Which ones can't I afford two of?"

Quite frankly, the benefits don't outweigh the additional cost - especially when I'd end up with a rig that's heavier than the one I can make from a valve amp and a lightweight speaker cab.

crunchman

Moe_Zambeek said:

Modelling and FRFR took off in the states mainly due to the church crowd as far as I can tell. You don't see many normal grass roots bands with them (cos they are expensive compared to an old HRD and a couple of pedals). 'Church crowd' being code for well-off middle aged middle class American men with lots of disposable income.

Some large touring acts incorporate it for the transport (and therefore cost) benefits more than anything else. Metallica, for example, being one of the tightest bands in the planet

There are often a lot of constraints on stage volume in a church setting.  This is the reason they have taken off there.   It's not just Kempers and Axe FXs.  There are a lot of church guys who use a Tech 21 pedal and go direct.  They can't all afford the high end stuff.

The other thing to bear in mind is what it sounds like out front.  What turned me on to the Kemper was hearing one used live.  I'd heard the same band the previous year in the same venue.  The first time the guitarist had a Marshall half stack while he had a Kemper the second time.  The sound out front was MUCH better with the Kemper.  It wasn't a huge venue, but it did have a good PA.  If I was going to play in a pub band with a Kemper I'd buy my own monitor speaker.

Years ago I used a Line 6 Pod XT into a PA (in a church setting).  There was a guy in the congregation who worked as a guitar tech and he said it was the best sound he had heard from me.  I only did it the once because we had dreadful monitors and it was a nightmare on stage, but ultimately if there is any kind of decent PA and monitors then modelling makes sense to get the best experience for the audience out front. 

On the reliability front, if you use something like an EV ZLX12P which can be had for under £300, then it is likely to prove more reliable than a valve amp.  I've had valves go bad a lot more often than I've had solid state stuff like that go bad.  For those who are talking about what happens if it goes down then what happens if your valve amp goes down?  You are not in that much of a different position.  Either way the best solution is probably one of the Joyo Tech 21 knock offs straight to the PA.

Decent PA equipment is getting cheaper.  All the class D stuff now means that you can get 1000W active speaker cabs for under £300.  As this stuff becomes more widespread then I think we will see more bands using it.

I do agree that it doesn't have the feel of a real amp, but as it gets cheaper then it will take over.  6 years ago the only modeller that would really have been regarded as good was the Axe FX which was over £2,000.  Then the Kemper came out at a cheaper price point.  Now we have the Helix which is a couple of hundred less than the Kemper.  Give it a few years and the modelling at the budget end of the market will get cheaper - or we will just use software modelling and take our laptops.  Young kids are going to grow up with this stuff and they will probably ask why we are lumping heavy cabs around everywhere.

It's probably like comparing real pianos to a modern stage piano.  A real pianist will always say that the stage pianos don't have the feel of a real one, but how many real pianos do you see these days?  I love the real thing (apart from having to tune to one that's not at concert pitch) but practicality means that you almost never see one.

digitalscream

crunchman said:

I've had valves go bad a lot more often than I've had solid state stuff like that go bad.  For those who are talking about what happens if it goes down then what happens if your valve amp goes down?  You are not in that much of a different position.  Either way the best solution is probably one of the Joyo Tech 21 knock offs straight to the PA.

Backup amp - Jet City JCA22H. £200, works perfectly for all my needs.

So...my rig is this:

Victory Kraken	£829.00
Digitech GSP1101	£150.00
2x12”	£125.00
JCA22H (backup)	£200.00
	£1,304.00

That's about the same as *one* Kemper or Helix on its own, not including a decent-quality monitor or a backup. I have all the digital functionality I need in the GSP1101, and I have all the great-sounding valveness I need in the amps.

As I said - the benefits of going digital/FRFR are just not significant enough compared to the compromises and cost. For me, at least.