Should I buy a Helix, Amplifire, AX8, ...

digitalscream

Sporky said:

I still think someone (other than me) should organise a modeller show & tell so we can actually compare these fine devices.

...with a real amp + dummy load + impulse loader for a controlled comparison as to how good the modelling *really* is. That would be quite an interesting test, IMO.

Kebabkid

monquixote said:

sgosden said:

Kebabkid said:

@monquixote - have you seen this thread about the Helix and how it compares the Fractal?

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/1500-bucks-you-say-line6.100939/

on the fractal forum? wont the fan boys amongst them have a tainted view from the start? :P

Yeah I started reading it and it's essentially an exercise in mutual reassurance that they haven't made the wrong purchasing decision.

Didn't read too much of it but naievely thought there might be something useful, or some objectivity there. Oh, well.
Scrub that one
Edit:the Loller here can also fuck off!!

Teetonetal

digitalscream said:

Sporky said:

I still think someone (other than me) should organise a modeller show & tell so we can actually compare these fine devices.

...with a real amp + dummy load + impulse loader for a controlled comparison as to how good the modelling *really* is. That would be quite an interesting test, IMO.

Not kidding - I also think for a really, really good test you would want a live band playing a set with the real amp/cab miced up followed by the same set with the amp modeled through the PA...

monquixote

Teetonetal said:

digitalscream said:

Sporky said:

I still think someone (other than me) should organise a modeller show & tell so we can actually compare these fine devices.

...with a real amp + dummy load + impulse loader for a controlled comparison as to how good the modelling *really* is. That would be quite an interesting test, IMO.

Not kidding - I also think for a really, really good test you would want a live band playing a set with the real amp/cab miced up followed by the same set with the amp modeled through the PA...

Just did that with my band. (Well with a week apart).

Results seemed to be fairly positive.

BluesyDave

Have you checked out Pete Thorn on YT?  He's got a pretty good demo of the Helix routed in various different ways.  It does look and sound amazing (through decent speakers).  I'd like to hear one up close....or maybe I wouldn't.  I'm not sure Mrs Bluesy would have a sympathetic ear.

guitarfishbay

digitalscream said:

Sporky said:

I still think someone (other than me) should organise a modeller show & tell so we can actually compare these fine devices.

...with a real amp + dummy load + impulse loader for a controlled comparison as to how good the modelling *really* is. That would be quite an interesting test, IMO.

Out of curiosity how does the real amp+dummy load setup cope with vastly different IRs?

Say a 4x12 IR then open backed 1x12/2x12 IRs etc?

At least on the Axe FX 2, when going between these you are in theory supposed to input the resonant frequency/Q of the cabinet to get the power amp modelling to work correctly.

In a real setup with a valve amp and cab this just happens.

But in a setup with a reactive load and then impulses, what is the outcome?

Drew_TNBD

In my experience unless you've got the same models and same IRs for your real amp and modeller comparison, it's pointless doing.

vasselmeyer

Teetonetal said:

Not kidding - I also think for a really, really good test you would want a live band playing a set with the real amp/cab miced up followed by the same set with the amp modeled through the PA...

I agree, but the only people who will be able to tell are you and other guitarists. I know it's to do with being happy or satisfied with the sound you're hearing which will generally make you play better and be more relaxed on stage. As far as the audience is concerned as long as they are happy to dance and sing along you could be playing anything.

Case in point, the last two gigs for me have been in a big place where we could spread out. I used my Egnater Rebel 30 in 4CM with all my favourite pedals and my PRS DGT. To me it sounded great and I was more than happy with how I played. The second was in a small crowded place with the packed crowd right on top of us. I was wary about having beer spilled all over my favourite gear so I took my old Johnson JT50 modelling amp and floorboard and played my Tele. To me the sound compared with the previous gig was night and day; the modeller didn't breath, there were gaps when I changed patches and I was fairly grumpy almost all the way through because it didn't feel right.

I got exactly the same comments from the audience from both gigs. The only difference was a guitarist who saw us both times and all he said was "The PRS sounded better" without mentioning all the other parts of the signal chain that could have affected the sound.

All of this, for me is just cork-sniffing, but if miniscule amounts of tweaking sounds and workflow makes you happy and comfortable and it keeps the likes of Fractal, Line 6 and all the "boutique" effects and amplifier manufacturers in business then more power to us in having that choice available.

Personally I LOVE tinkering. I'm more than happy to swap out my DLS for a Wampler or a Guv'nor just for one gig so I can get slightly a different Plexi sound than I had before. It doesn't matter whether it's phsyical tinkering with pedals, power supplies and cables (and I'm going to take delivery of my new new setup tomorrow courtesy of @CustomPedalBoards) or virtual tinkering in the shape of the Line 6 Helix interface which looks amazing.

Essentially the plethora of gear available is the answer to the question "Are you happy enough with your sound and how you use your gear to make you comfortable enough to play as well as you can?"

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx;1061070" said:

In my experience unless you've got the same models and same IRs for your real amp and modeller comparison, it's pointless doing.

I would agree with this.

But I also feel you can compare features online but in use you'll either like it or not. Personally I really like the Axe FX 2 for guitar, for bass I still prefer pedals if I'm honest.

Sporky

digitalscream said:

Sporky said:

I still think someone (other than me) should organise a modeller show & tell so we can actually compare these fine devices.

...with a real amp + dummy load + impulse loader for a controlled comparison as to how good the modelling *really* is. That would be quite an interesting test, IMO.

I do not disagree.

Drew_fx said:

In my experience unless you've got the same models and same IRs for your real amp and modeller comparison, it's pointless doing.

I do disagree a little; as long as you're clear about what you want to learn then you can derive useful information from that sort of comparison.

You are of course right in that if you're trying to establish whether people can tell the modeller from the amp and cab in a blind test, you need it to be fair.

My interest in a modeller fest isn't to see which I should use - the Helix is good enough for my purposes regardless of the other approaches available - but to see what the differences are and just for the joy of tinkering a bit. It's tricky finding a shop with a Helix, it's downright impossible to find a shop with an FX8 or AX8.

I'm also interested to hear the differences produced by different amplification approaches, even though some aren't appropriate for my use, and mine isn't appropriate for gigging.

guitarfishbay

I really think all these units are too complex to understand from a shop trial. If I'd tried an Axe FX 2 in a shop on a whim I honestly think I'd have passed. At my time of purchase the default settings on the amps I use were total rubbish, not even a little off I mean actual rubbish. The Rectifier sounded like a muffled fart put through a subwoofer, and almost all the higher gain amps were too compressed sounding with choked low end. Reading the quick start guide that G66 sent, some forum posts, plus a few hours trial and error and I've been really happy. As firmwares have updated I've found default settings closer to useful, but I still find the default master too high on many amps and it is a very powerful control.

hubobulous

Live, I use an amp/pedalboard and the Rivera Rockcrusher Recording. This allows me to emulate a mic'd cab using a pretty comprehensive EQ without the need for a cab if I so wish. 

I'd be happy to bring this to a comparison sesh with modellers. Like @Sporky, my interest wouldn't be regarding which is better, but more to understand the differences and what can be achieved with both configs.

Kebabkid

monquixote said:

sgosden said:

Kebabkid said:

@monquixote - have you seen this thread about the Helix and how it compares the Fractal?

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/1500-bucks-you-say-line6.100939/

on the fractal forum? wont the fan boys amongst them have a tainted view from the start? :P

Yeah I started reading it and it's essentially an exercise in mutual reassurance that they haven't made the wrong purchasing decision.

Didn't read too much of it but thought there might be something useful, or some objectivity there. Oh, well.
Scrub that one

hubobulous

@Kebabkid - the Loller was me. I smiled that you'd tried to help and that it ended up being scrubbed by you. Consider me fucking off ;-)

I Lol'd the second entry of the same post too ;-)

monquixote

In my case the load box and speaker sim was what I was doing before. I have one in the classifieds if anyone wants to try it.

Kebabkid

You git David
Sorry, bad day for me and I'm suffering a sense of humour bypass. I owe you a fondant fancy

hubobulous

@Kebabkid - you owe me two fondant fancies - one for each post

Kebabkid

Ha Ha.

Sorry Nick - back to the subject matter

Sporky

monquixote said:

In my case the load box and speaker sim was what I was doing before. I have one in the classifieds if anyone wants to try it.

I had a really crude equivalent - Behringer GI400s and a little Hammond box with four power resistors in it. Surprisingly decent.