I hate Microsoft ......

Fretwired

I was working on a new track and left my studio PC on all day unattended .. when I returned Microsoft had unilaterally decided to upgrade it to Windows 10 and now much of my software doesn't work. Beware if you're running on W7 or W8 ..

digitalscream

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why I use Linux.

Sure, I might not be able to use every VST out there, but at least I'm completely in control and never have any fear that my software or hardware will suddenly stop working.

Fretwired

The big issue are the e-licensing systems which won't work. A few hours fun ...

tabbycat

Fretwired said:

I was working on a new track and left my studio PC on all day unattended .. when I returned Microsoft had unilaterally decided to upgrade it to Windows 10 and now much of my software doesn't work. Beware if you're running on W7 or W8 ..

hey fretwired, if you go into your control panel (or whatever it is called in windows 10) and click settings, you should be able to control what gets updated and when, or not at all unless you say so, so you never have to suffer that again. five minutes trouble to save hours of ongoing pain. well worth it.
i set everything as 'tell me about important new updates as they are released, but never install anything unless i give express permission first'. choose something like that.

that said, i think digitalscream's comment about linux may be where i go next though. probably with mint. the days of proprietory operating systems and media should be in the past. open source is the future. foss also suits me more financially, politically and from the privacy angle.

alas i'm also deeply crap at computers and as much patience as i seem to have for music i don't seem to have for problem solving at a desktop. eg random numbers, subfolders in subfolders in subfolders, 'you have a 23de£%^&*FUFIY4-5&*^%$9 type error' messages, etc. but soon...

Drew_TNBD

Open Source is definitely not the future.

digitalscream

Drew_fx said:

Open Source is definitely not the future.

It already is the future. 70% of servers, 53% of mobile devices and increasing all the time...that's just the operating systems.

And those stats don't even include embedded devices like routers, access points, TVs etc - they're almost exclusively based on open source software.

In terms of desktops, Linux (specifically) has a massive advantage over Windows and OS X - hardware support. Once the kernel supports a specific piece of hardware, it's basically there to stay. The other two have a constantly-changing driver model, so once the manufacturer stops releasing drivers you're boned and have to buy something new or stick with an OS with increasingly worse software support.

On the other hand, you can (for example) run Reaper under WINE in Linux, and have it work forever more (often faster than natively under Windows).

vasselmeyer

What @digitalscream says might be true about it's adoption in servers and embedded devices (in which I include phones) but it is nowhere NEAR the "my mum" test for desktop implementation. My parents, both 70+, are OK with Windows, installing new software etc. It's friendly enough for them. Linux, on the other hand, when they would come up against something that doesn't work, or it needs me to fettle WINE to get it running because there is only a Windows version, is out.

I've got a system that will triple boot into a hackintosh, Ubuntu or Windows and although I'm pretty familiar with Linux and *nix variations it boots into Windows 95% of the time because for what I need it to do, it just works.

digitalscream

@vasselmeyer - Ubuntu passes the "my wife" test, which is good enough for me. Wifey's been using it for about 4 years now; she got a new laptop with Win8 on it to rebel against my tyranny, and within a couple of days was begging me to install Ubuntu.

Fretwired

@tabbycat .. I was on Windows 8 and got upgraded to 10 without being asked .... I've fixed most things which just required upgrades .. it's the time and the arrogance of MS. I understand they want one OS on PCs, tablets and phones and that they want to kill off Win 7/8 but that doesn't mean they have to piss me off.

Fretwired

@digitalscream .. Linux sounds attractive (I used to work on Unix systems) but I've invested too much time in Steinberg and NI products.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

@digitalscream .. Linux sounds attractive (I used to work on Unix systems) but I've invested too much time in Steinberg and NI products.

I believe Steinberg and NI hardware works natively under Linux. Not all features, necessarily, but I'm 99% positive that their audio interfaces are supported, as is anything that works with MIDI.

darcym

digitalscream said:

Drew_fx said:

Open Source is definitely not the future.

It already is the future. 70% of servers, 53% of mobile devices and increasing all the time...that's just the operating systems.

And those stats don't even include embedded devices like routers, access points, TVs etc - they're almost exclusively based on open source software.

In terms of desktops, Linux (specifically) has a massive advantage over Windows and OS X - hardware support. Once the kernel supports a specific piece of hardware, it's basically there to stay. The other two have a constantly-changing driver model, so once the manufacturer stops releasing drivers you're boned and have to buy something new or stick with an OS with increasingly worse software support.

On the other hand, you can (for example) run Reaper under WINE in Linux, and have it work forever more (often faster than natively under Windows).

I couldn't disagree more with you on this,

hardware devices are dropped from linux kernels on a regular basis, other hardware devices depend on 3rd parties to support and maintain it in line with not only the kernel, but the compiler and the libc version, on the server this is not really a huge issue, as the hardware is fairly stable and provided by people that open up most components, on the desktop this is a mess.

tools like wine are a moving target, something can work well for 6 months then never work again depending on how the OS/wine/application make changes going forward.

digitalscream

darcym said:

I couldn't disagree more with you on this,

hardware devices are dropped from linux kernels on a regular basis, other hardware devices depend on 3rd parties to support and maintain it in line with not only the kernel, but the compiler and the libc version, on the server this is not really a huge issue, as the hardware is fairly stable and provided by people that open up most components, on the desktop this is a mess.

tools like wine are a moving target, something can work well for 6 months then never work again depending on how the OS/wine/application make changes going forward.

Yes, the mainstream kernels have really esoteric hardware dropped (ancient scanners, old parallel port hardware etc), but I haven't come across a single piece of hardware that I need which had the support dropped. Even if support is dropped, it's almost-trivial to recompile support back in (or have multiple kernels installed).

WINE might be a (kinda) moving target, but here's the thing - you can freeze the installed version without affecting anything else on your system, unlike Windows and OS X where freezing one thing (eg a version which worked with OS X 10.5) means freezing everything.

darcym

you can't freeze the installed version without impacting things, - you can freeze the wine package, but then the actual app updates can break it, the actual OS updates can break it, if you freeze them to, then you run into support bugs and security so what's the point.

Freezing wine means freezing most things, more so with wine as it uses / depends on a fair few core system libraries as dependencies.

you can't recompile support for obsolete hardware in, the whole point of them removing it is because it's gone, you're not going to pull a module for a device from the 2.6 branch and build it into the 4.4 branch, it won't work.

digitalscream

darcym said:

you can't freeze the installed version without impacting things, - you can freeze the wine package, but then the actual app updates can break it, the actual OS updates can break it, if you freeze them to, then you run into support bugs and security so what's the point.

Freezing wine means freezing most things, more so with wine as it uses / depends on a fair few core system libraries as dependencies.

you can't recompile support for obsolete hardware in, the whole point of them removing it is because it's gone, you're not going to pull a module for a device from the 2.6 branch and build it into the 4.4 branch, it won't work.

You can freeze the installed version, by compiling it specifically for your system. There's an easier way with the new snap packages, though, because they come with their own dependencies.

I'll grant you, hardware which has lost support is generally gone, but then...most of the stuff that's had support dropped won't physically connect to any machine made in the last 10 years anyway (before you get nit-picky...I said most).

robinbowes

@darcym: You're entirely missing the point of open source software.

The very fact that the source is open means that you can write code to support any hardware you want. In a closed-source system, that is simply not possible, unless the supplier gives you an API to work against.

Regarding updates, any update is a risk, so if you don't need to update then you simply don't update. I've got a system running on Fedora Core 4 at home. I can't update it because there are no updates, but it's still running perfectly well. FC4 went EOL nearly *ten* years ago.

R.

darcym

I'm not missing the point of it at all, -  I contribute to it on a regular basis, however I am realistic about it's uses pros/cons

darcym

digitalscream said:

darcym said:

you can't freeze the installed version without impacting things, - you can freeze the wine package, but then the actual app updates can break it, the actual OS updates can break it, if you freeze them to, then you run into support bugs and security so what's the point.

Freezing wine means freezing most things, more so with wine as it uses / depends on a fair few core system libraries as dependencies.

you can't recompile support for obsolete hardware in, the whole point of them removing it is because it's gone, you're not going to pull a module for a device from the 2.6 branch and build it into the 4.4 branch, it won't work.

You can freeze the installed version, by compiling it specifically for your system. There's an easier way with the new snap packages, though, because they come with their own dependencies.

I'll grant you, hardware which has lost support is generally gone, but then...most of the stuff that's had support dropped won't physically connect to any machine made in the last 10 years anyway (before you get nit-picky...I said most).

you make a fair point, and I didn't mean to be as blunt as I was, but even compiling it won't "lock" it or the dependencies,

wine can work with version 1 of windows app, windows updates it to 1.01 with a patch, bang wine support gone.
wine can work with a windows app - statically linked against say libc 1, distro updates with back ported security fix to libc 1.0.1 as it should do, bang, compatability gone, it's just not a stable way of working or planning to work.

digitalscream

darcym said:

you make a fair point, and I didn't mean to be as blunt as I was, but even compiling it won't "lock" it or the dependencies,

wine can work with version 1 of windows app, windows updates it to 1.01 with a patch, bang wine support gone.
wine can work with a windows app - statically linked against say libc 1, distro updates with back ported security fix to libc 1.0.1 as it should do, bang, compatability gone, it's just not a stable way of working or planning to work.

What I mean is...almost every time, you can recompile with later versions of the compilation tools if you need to. It doesn't lock it, no, but there's almost always a way to get it to work - same with WINE; you can keep the same version of WINE, and recompile with later versions (you can even keep static versions of libraries, all of which are still out there - which you can't say for the other two operating systems).

It's not a zero-maintenance solution, but it does result in a working system...which is better than the alternative - not working at all.

viz

Fretwired said:

I was working on a new track and left my studio PC on all day unattended .. when I returned Microsoft had unilaterally decided to upgrade it to Windows 10 and now much of my software doesn't work. Beware if you're running on W7 or W8 ..

That happened to me yesterday, I was waiting for my guitar lesson - he said he'd be 15 mins lateso I went downstairs; when I came back up my PC was 1% of the way through installing Windows 10, unbidden! Missed the start of my lesson

Drew_TNBD

Open Source is not the future.