Amp Builders/Tech: Have you ever considered becoming an amp builder

darcym

open question for all the guys out there who repair amps, build amps, build amps full time, design amps etc etc.

I'm aware of highly skilled builders dipping a toe, in the water, I'm aware of some guys building clones, and some guys who are doing this as a business with varying degrees of success.

During amp discussions, I see some pretty wise and sage opinions not only around amps, but the business and market of amps in general.

To the amp builders and techs out there, have you ever considered pushing out amps as a business, what amps would you like to make and why - and if your one of the existing guys, how do you find the market and business in general.

what's stopped you / pushed you into doing it

From someone who only uses amps, I see a lot of quality stuff not happening and being talked about, I see a lot of junk being pushed out, I see silly prices, I see impressive prices, so from those in the know, what's your views.

I understand the risks, but someone say like Fuchs and Two Rock and dr Z, Jackson Ampworks seem to make a business out of it, yet their UK alternatives seem to struggle or not exist, the UK builders seem to be mods or clones of the more popular amps (which makes sense as they are popular for a reason)

Educate me.

ICBM

No.

One - I enjoy solving problems more than following a plan. While there are a lot of 'same old' repairs, there are a lot which need a bit more detective work and thinking to arrive at a solution too.

Two - I don't like "hand made" when it looks more like "home made". Really - I prefer precise, machine-made perfection. I don't want to produce something that looks home-made, and in order to do the factory-made thing requires more capital investment than I am willing or comfortable to put into it.

Three - nowadays there are a lot of regulations hoops to jump through if you're building new equipment, and I am allergic to paperwork.

There are more than enough amps out there to keep me repairing old ones for the rest of my days, even given the trend towards less-repairable products.

Chalky

Building amps as a hobby and building amps as a business probably have a lot less overlap than you imagine.

Danny1969

I have a small cottage industry making and selling a small signal amp  product which isn't a guitar amp but I have often thought about designing and making some guitar amps. The trouble is guitarist are a really conservative bunch of customers and they basically want the same product sold to them again and again .... .which kind of takes some of the fun out of it for me. It's doing something different that interests me, not just building yet another Champ clone circuit into a nice wooden box. But that's what sells !

exocet

The plethora of American Amp brands exist because their native market is so much larger than that available to the UK builder.
The American music scene is still very guitar orientated which helps things as well.

hywelg

Having built a few clones, but never thought of taking it further, I think the level of knowledge you need to design and build your own is an order of magnitude higher than the hobbyist copying 1987 schematics. For ever Jesse Hoff, MJW etc there are probably 20 more just getting by fixing up  old broken amps, maybe doing a bit of modding and maybe the odd one off.

The Dumble clone phenomenon never really hit here, but in the US it resulted in companies like Two Rock, Redplate, Fuchs, Bludotone, Carol Ann etc etc... but of course theirs is a way bigger market.

I also built quite a few headshells combos and speaker cabs and the thing that I learnt was that you need to be making lots of them to get any sort of return for your time and effort. Every one I made for sale I paid myself well below the minimum wage for.

darcym

I only picked two rock and fuchs as easy examples, I think it's fair to show maybe Friedman for example as having a positive impact on marshal market (just for a different example)

DJH83004

I think @ICBM pretty much sums it up with the added last paragraph from @hyweig, I did a feasibility project a couple of years ago based on my own take on a Princeton design, accurately accounting for labour & materials and to be honest unless you can bring economies of scale into play on purchases and reduced labour rates - I couldn't get it even close to break even.

So big hats off to the guys who do produce such beautifully crafted amps, they clearly don't compromise on quality and hopefully make a reasonable living at the same time :-)  

timmysoft

I popped in to Hamstead Amps on Saturday, prime example of a great story. Peter and James really know their stuff when it comes to repairs and modifications, it also means that they know what users want and need from a production amp.

ThePrettyDamned

In the USA, you have tgp. Crack that and you've won! Sounds daft, but seriously, we have a good few amp builders but Brits would often rather get a us made amp with international forum seal of approval. You see them more on YouTube, read more reviews online...

darcym

timmysoft said:

I popped in to Hamstead Amps on Saturday, prime example of a great story. Peter and James really know their stuff when it comes to repairs and modifications, it also means that they know what users want and need from a production amp.

that's something I'd not considered, totally slipped my mind, they are making fantastic amps

Sporky

ICBM said:

Two - I don't like "hand made" when it looks more like "home made". Really - I prefer precise, machine-made perfection. I don't want to produce something that looks home-made, and in order to do the factory-made thing requires more capital investment than I am willing or comfortable to put into it.

That's a big part of why I stopped making pedals. I didn't want to have the PCBs made in a far-east plant with solder resist and silk screening, and I didn't want the enclosures powder coated and sil screened. I wanted to do it myself, and I did so to a fairly decent standard. But many customers wanted visual perfection, and didn't want to pay for the small things that made a difference, The internal power supply was too expensive, they didn't like the look of leaving the pot locator lugs on, they wanted the wiring "tight", not with service loops, blah blah.

darcym

Sporky said:

ICBM said:

Two - I don't like "hand made" when it looks more like "home made". Really - I prefer precise, machine-made perfection. I don't want to produce something that looks home-made, and in order to do the factory-made thing requires more capital investment than I am willing or comfortable to put into it.

That's a big part of why I stopped making pedals. I didn't want to have the PCBs made in a far-east plant with solder resist and silk screening, and I didn't want the enclosures powder coated and sil screened. I wanted to do it myself, and I did so to a fairly decent standard. But many customers wanted visual perfection, and didn't want to pay for the small things that made a difference, The internal power supply was too expensive, they didn't like the look of leaving the pot locator lugs on, they wanted the wiring "tight", not with service loops, blah blah.

the fact that you no longer make pedals is sad enough, the fact that this is the reason is even sadder.

RiftAmps

I'm now into my fourth year and I've a couple of observations:

1. Guitarists are much more conservative bunch than I ever imagined, mostly they want the three main food groups (Tweed, Blackface, Plexi) and not much else. I don't cater for metal players so couldn't really comment on that side of of the tonal spectrum.
   
   
2. Unless you've got a shed load of cash behind you, R&D for a new all-guns-blazing Swiss army amp is not going to happen anytime soon.
   
   
3. Your margins are nowhere near what you'd like to them be, so don't take on expensive premises and costly overheads if you want to feed yourself.
   
   
4. It's bloody difficult.
   
   
5. This e-mail, twice a week - "Hi, I want an endorsement but don't want to pay and don't currently own any of your products. My band is playing in a London pub next week, maybe we can talk about a signature amp?".
   
   
6. Also this e-mail - "Hi, I'm thinking about a custom amp with these specs, do you have any in stock?".
   
   
7. You need great people skills, not for your customers but for your suppliers.
   
   
8. You're either dead quiet or flat-out busy......regular work? Pah. Most take on repairs to help.
   
   
9. You need to be a website designer, audio engineer, videographer, graphic designer and social media wizard.
   
   
10. I love it.

EDIT: 11. Medication helps.

exocet

Have any of the more recent U.S based entrants into the Amp Market (I'll include Two-Rock in this even though they have been going for around 15 years) done anything different other than to:

a) Produce a product which is pretty good but "based on" a flavour of "something else"

b) Worked the marketing via endorsement deals that include a mix of established mainstream artists alongside talented "up and coming".

c) Use the Internet effectively especially forums

It's the U.S Market potential that allows them to succeed. Marshall would not have been able to achieve what they did in the heyday of guitar based music without getting into the U.S market. The story of how they did that is well known as well as the financial consequences.

Cornford are an example of a U.K company who attempted to design / manufacture in the U.K. They had some success, tried to scale up, break into U.S but failed to do so. I suspect that had they been U.S based to begin with, they would have succeeded.

Modulus_Amps

Everything Chris said above but no 4 and 10 stand out for me too.

I left a very well paid design job in the O&G industry a year ago to pursue my parts business and amp building full time, I have never been this skint since I graduated but I enjoy my job on a daily basis and never grudge going to work.

I have allot of customers that want to build commercially, but I will point you back to no 4 above, oh and no 1

The UK market is small, now if we could actually enjoy the benefits of being in the EU our market should be just as big as the USA's, alas it is not.

From what I understand Cornfords demise was fairly unique and due to poor business dealings?

exocet

Modulus_Amps said:

Everything Chris said above but no 4 and 10 stand out for me too.

I left a very well paid design job in the O&G industry a year ago to pursue my parts business and amp building full time, I have never been this skint since I graduated but I enjoy my job on a daily basis and never grudge going to work.

I have allot of customers that want to build commercially, but I will point you back to no 4 above, oh and no 1

The UK market is small, now if we could actually enjoy the benefits of being in the EU our market should be just as big as the USA's, alas it is not.

From what I understand Cornfords demise was fairly unique and due to poor business dealings?

I won't claim to know exactly what happened at Cornford but I have read the stories of the personalities / decisions that were made. However, I still think that their failure to gain traction within the U.S market was a significant contributor to their ultimate demise. A U.S maker has a better chance of generating a "volume business" within the U.S market that then allows them to achieve better "per unit" production costs. This then allows them to export to Europe (single market) and cover the tariffs whilst still being relatively competitive on price (with some notable exceptions). 

HAL9000

darcym said:

Sporky said:

ICBM said:

Two - I don't like "hand made" when it looks more like "home made". Really - I prefer precise, machine-made perfection. I don't want to produce something that looks home-made, and in order to do the factory-made thing requires more capital investment than I am willing or comfortable to put into it.

That's a big part of why I stopped making pedals. I didn't want to have the PCBs made in a far-east plant with solder resist and silk screening, and I didn't want the enclosures powder coated and sil screened. I wanted to do it myself, and I did so to a fairly decent standard. But many customers wanted visual perfection, and didn't want to pay for the small things that made a difference, The internal power supply was too expensive, they didn't like the look of leaving the pot locator lugs on, they wanted the wiring "tight", not with service loops, blah blah.

the fact that you no longer make pedals is sad enough, the fact that this is the reason is even sadder.

I'm the proud owner of one of Sporky's superb MonkeyFX pedals, and for me part of the charm is the non mass produced look of it.

jpfamps

I concur with most of the above.

The main reason is simply there isn't very much money in it. 

Although there seem to be a plethora of amp makers in the UK, most are one man band operations and very few I would think are making a living just making amps (in fact I know there are very few).

I certainly am not, not that this bothers me a huge amount as I really enjoy doing repairs and am busy.

The US is a MUCH larger market than even the EU as there simply more working musicians there. 

If you are making something in the UK, then it will have to aimed towards the more professional end of the market, which of course is a small subset of the not very big amp market, and I get the impression that people in the UK are less keen to pay for higher end amps (obviously members of this forum excepted!!!). 

As Sporky alludes to, if you are building amps, how much of the building do you do in house?

Let's look at the chassis. Do you use an off-the-shelf chassis (easiest option for small production runs, especially if you are making copies of existing designs), or a blank chassis and punch / drill it (necessary for one offs, but inefficient), or do you have custom chassis make to your spec (most cost effective, but requires significant up front investment).

No guitar amp manufacturer (at least none I know of) winds there own transformers, so again do you go off-the-shelf or get custom units made?

Regarding our amps, they are a unique design (although of course take circuit elements from other amp designs), we use custom wound transformers, we CNC our own PTFE circuit cards, so have control of the layout, we use custom-made 2 mm aluminium chassis and do the wiring in house. We don't make the cabinets in house, but are made to our design so that hopefully we have a distinctive look rather than copy of someone else's design, ie it's not another Tweed box.

I probably enjoy the design side of the process the most.

hywelg

RiftAmps said:

1. This e-mail, twice a week - "Hi, I want an endorsement but don't want to pay and don't currently own any of your products. My band is playing in a London pub next week, maybe we can talk about a signature amp?".
   
   

He's a bugger, that Aynsley!!  

RiftAmps

hywelg;1060489" said:

RiftAmps said:



This e-mail, twice a week - "Hi, I want an endorsement but don't want to pay and don't currently own any of your products. My band is playing in a London pub next week, maybe we can talk about a signature amp?".












He's a bugger, that Aynsley!!  

Ha!