Line 6 Helix "MFX Only" coming out.. ??

andyoz

Are there any rumours of a stripped back MFX only Helix coming out?

Or is it likely that Line 6 will just use the full Helix as the basis for all future MFX stuff, i.e. the full Helix is such good value that users will buy it even if they don't need to use amp modelling. The interface just appears so good compared to competition..

It would make sense for them to follow the Fractal AxeFx and Fx8 route though?

Sporky

The Helix is already the price of the AX8/FX8 though.

I s'pose there's room in the range for a Helix lite with just one DSP, fewer footswitches and so on. I'm not sure it'd be a lot less expensive, mind.

andyoz

Yes, I think it would be cheaper for them to just run with the single Helix platform rather than having twice the models/inventory to handle. Clever product.

Cabicular

Sporky;1144461" said:

The Helix is already the price of the AX8/FX8 though.



I s'pose there's room in the range for a Helix lite with just one DSP, fewer footswitches and so on. I'm not sure it'd be a lot less expensive, mind.

I haven't checked for a while but I thought the AX8 was about 30-40% more expensive?

andyoz

I think the FX8 is about £1000

Cabicular

I don't
I think about 1500-1600 euros
The AX8 is 1699 euros

fretmeister

Even if they did, how many years was it before Factal got round to it?

longi

Digital Igloo was asking over on TGP what people wanted next and I think the resounding answer was a stripped down Helix with the amp models. Basically an HD500 or a Pod XT live with with the Helix models and IR loading. Only a few people wanted FX only.There are a fair number of people that wasn't an updated M13 though.

EricTheWeary

IIRC almost as soon as the Helix was announced there was speculation about how the new developments might filter out into the rest of the range. If an effects only version isn't much cheaper or simpler to use then it probably has no point, although an M series type version I think makes a lot of sense. Just an update on the DL4 would be a decent start. For a technology company Line 6 are still hawking some relatively dated stuff.

digitalscream

Think about it: where and how are they going to make the cost savings in such a thing?

- DSP. They could go for less horsepower, which might save £30 or £40, but that would be offset by having to redesign the board.

- Firmware. No saving here - in fact, it would cost them more to rewrite it (and cost them more in maintenance later, because they'd have to maintain two branches of the same code).

- Hardware. No real savings, unless they get rid of a few loops, possibly the screen (which is one of the big selling points). Perhaps £40 saving?

- Converters. Dropping the audio quality would be counter-productive. Nothing to do here.

- Scribble-strips. Can't get rid of these, because they're part of the USP.

In short...a cut-down version really wouldn't be appreciably cheaper to make, and thus couldn't really be appreciably cheaper to buy...unless they totally neuter it and get rid of things that set the Helix apart from the rest of the market (like the screen, for example).

In any case, the weakness of the pound right now makes anything like this a bit of a moot point.

Sporky

I dunno; if they could do something for say £600ish, with one loop, just two paths, drop the AES and SPDIF outputs, five/six footswitches plus bank up/down, a smaller screen. You could keep a lot of the code.

digitalscream

Sporky said:

I dunno; if they could do something for say £600ish, with one loop, just two paths, drop the AES and SPDIF outputs, five/six footswitches plus bank up/down, a smaller screen. You could keep a lot of the code.

Would it be usable, though? Patch latency is big on these things, but cutting down the footswitches limits the usability of the snapshot function.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I just can't see how it could be done without going too far with the compromises.

In the case of the AX8/FX8, there was a clear need because a) a lot of people don't like running rack gear, and b) the price of the AxeFX II put it beyond the bulk of the market. The Helix has neither of these problems.

Digital_Igloo

Some people felt like HD500X didn't have enough DSP to accommodate the complex dual-amp chains they had in their head. Since HX models are considerably more DSP-intensive than HD and user IRs are now table stakes, I don't think there's a way to get enough juice out of a single SHARC at this point, even if we limited tones to a single amp and cab/IR.

I'm sure Roland and DigiTech have the same conversations we have—$500 US is the magic number to hit for affordable-ish modeling, but today's raised expectations make it all but impossible to hit that price point. In fact, due to parts and labor pricing increases, if we were to release POD HD500X today and not change a thing (including no power switch), we'd have to charge $600.

However, a Helix-level FX-only box could likely be done with a single SHARC. The big challenge there is UI/UX. M9 and M13 are so dead simple to use because it's one-knob-per-parameter. Some HX effects models have 20 or more parameters, so right out of the gate, it's gonna be harder to use. I have a gigantic pile of potential product designs, but right now our focus is on maintaining Helix and Helix Rack.

TimmyO

digitalscream said:

Think about it: where and how are they going to make the cost savings in such a thing?

- DSP. They could go for less horsepower, which might save £30 or £40, but that would be offset by having to redesign the board.

- Firmware. No saving here - in fact, it would cost them more to rewrite it (and cost them more in maintenance later, because they'd have to maintain two branches of the same code).

- Hardware. No real savings, unless they get rid of a few loops, possibly the screen (which is one of the big selling points). Perhaps £40 saving?

- Converters. Dropping the audio quality would be counter-productive. Nothing to do here.

- Scribble-strips. Can't get rid of these, because they're part of the USP.

In short...a cut-down version really wouldn't be appreciably cheaper to make, and thus couldn't really be appreciably cheaper to buy...unless they totally neuter it and get rid of things that set the Helix apart from the rest of the market (like the screen, for example).

In any case, the weakness of the pound right now makes anything like this a bit of a moot point.

That tends not to be how the thinking goes on extending a product range though. Extending a core product range downward (in cost) is often done at lower margin, because even that is better than losing sales from people who have cheaper options and no realistic appetite to spend big.

Winning those sales would otherwise cost big in terms of marketing and advertising - the alternative is to strip back the offering and create an artificial price difference. UAD's Apollo,interfaces are a good example - big price swings based in different DSP power. 

yamaha THR5 - a few pence less tin box leads to a believable price differential, hitting 2 types of buyer.

See also SONOS.

digitalscream

@TimmyO - don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an FX-only Helix - somewhere around the £400 - £500 mark, smaller (one row of switches, possibly ditch the expression pedal), no MIDI, one loop, with a couple of amp control relays and the ability to use 5 or 6 effect blocks simultaneously.

In fact, I'd probably be first in line for such a thing. I just can't see how it can be done, particularly given @Digital_Igloo's comments above.

EricTheWeary

Haven't they updated/ upgraded much of the modelling for Helix though? I presume that's part of the point of it anyway. Which means Line 6 non Helix products are still using older models so isn't it a reasonable expectation that some of that and any other lessons learned in the 4 year project to create the Helix find their way into other products? I'm probably not expecting a whole bunch of free updates so everyone's M5 can nab the best models out of the Helix but new products with the new models and some of what they've learned about interfaces, etc, incorporated into those. It seems an oddity that they launch a relatively expensive flagship product with nothing that trickles down into the rest of the range.

andyoz

digitalscream;1144856" said:

@TimmyO - don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an FX-only Helix - somewhere around the £400 - £500 mark, smaller (one row of switches, possibly ditch the expression pedal), no MIDI, one loop, with a couple of amp control relays and the ability to use 5 or 6 effect blocks simultaneously.

In fact, I'd probably be first in line for such a thing. I just can't see how it can be done, particularly given @Digital_Igloo's comments above.

That's the sort of thing I meant. The industrial design of the Helix is great. They just need a smaller stripped back casing/switching/display option to use as a HD500 replacement.

It would be interesting to see how the first 6 months of sales has compared with their forecasts (although were the delays caused by design/manufacturing cock ups and not demand exceeding expectation?). I assume the weekly Line 6 sales/marketing meetings are some fun.

guitargeek62

I wouldn't be against a new xx4 replacement series whereby the controls on the pedal might be limited, but an app/PC interface opened up the rest of the features (ala Eventide, TC) etc. I'd happily buy a Helix-DM4, AM4, and MM4 if such a thing were to happen.

siremoon

andyoz said:

digitalscream;1144856" said:

@TimmyO - don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an FX-only Helix - somewhere around the £400 - £500 mark, smaller (one row of switches, possibly ditch the expression pedal), no MIDI, one loop, with a couple of amp control relays and the ability to use 5 or 6 effect blocks simultaneously.

In fact, I'd probably be first in line for such a thing. I just can't see how it can be done, particularly given @Digital_Igloo's comments above.

That's the sort of thing I meant. The industrial design of the Helix is great. They just need a smaller stripped back casing/switching/display option to use as a HD500 replacement.

It would be interesting to see how the first 6 months of sales has compared with their forecasts (although were the delays caused by design/manufacturing cock ups and not demand exceeding expectation?). I assume the weekly Line 6 sales/marketing meetings are some fun.

I was under the impression that demand substantially outstripped expectation

menamestom

I think Zoom have improved on the M series effects TBH, so rather than worrying how Yamaha can hit a certain price point I'd rather wonder how Zoom can do it, but Yamaha/line 6 can't. A G3 is £125, an M9 £300 ish and line 6 can't improve on either for £500-600? I think there is a market for quality effect only units in that price range, pedalboard friendly, quality switches, good bypass and dc power etc. It may not be in the Line 6 business model, but while they continue the M series effects they will be seen to be a bit behind the times aside from the Helix.

rossyamaha

siremoon;1145324" said:

andyoz said:
digitalscream;1144856" said:@TimmyO - don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an FX-only Helix - somewhere around the £400 - £500 mark, smaller (one row of switches, possibly ditch the expression pedal), no MIDI, one loop, with a couple of amp control relays and the ability to use 5 or 6 effect blocks simultaneously.

In fact, I'd probably be first in line for such a thing. I just can't see how it can be done, particularly given @Digital_Igloo's comments above.
That's the sort of thing I meant. The industrial design of the Helix is great. They just need a smaller stripped back casing/switching/display option to use as a HD500 replacement.

It would be interesting to see how the first 6 months of sales has compared with their forecasts (although were the delays caused by design/manufacturing cock ups and not demand exceeding expectation?). I assume the weekly Line 6 sales/marketing meetings are some fun.



I was under the impression that demand substantially outstripped expectation

Oh yes, to say we got the forecast wrong is a fairly spectacular understatement.