What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

jpfamps

impmann said:

Wow... lots of lefty bashing here.


OK a few things:

Blair was seen by me and a lot of others as a *great* idea when he swept to power - and yes some of the things on his early agenda were great. However, it was just a front...

He let all of us with even the vaguest of socialist leaning down when he continued the dismantling of the education system with the tuition fees, his policies bent on "saving the NHS" had the opposite effect and the borrowing (admittedly some of which was due to the outgoing administration's screw ups) went stupid. As a result of this, and the fact he didn't keep a check on what the financial sector were up to - and he insisted on trusting that baboon Brown with the purse strings - we all ended up *worse* off. Couple that to dodgy dealings with the US and a war that he needs to stand trial for, he had to go. Brown was just a disaster - we would have done better putting Prescott up as a PM... and he can be an arse too.

So back to where we find ourselves now. The common working man does not align him or herself with the party of the working man, Labour, because of distrust, the media's demonisation of the Unions (thank that bitch Thatcher for that) and so your average working man has started voting Conservative because they *are better off* financially under them. Try explaining that its just short-termism and its just trickle-down bollocks they won't listen.

Corbyn is a good man. A VERY good man. Is he a leader...? Well, lets give him a chance to lead... and when we do, can we have unbiased reporting. Perfect example: trident vote... yes he voted differently to a large proportion of the rest of his party but he gave them free vote on the subject because he believes (rightly) it should be a vote of conscience. But no, the BBC et al reported it as a "crushing defeat"... he knew the vote wouldn't go his way, and it was just a Tory ruse to undermine him just before the recess (power games) because the decision had already been taken!!

As for him having a plan... well, yes he does. Look it up rather than bitching on here, repeating stuff you've seen on social media and in the gutter tabloids. Listen to the man - you may be surprised. He has been campaigning for a better world since before a lot of you were born...

<sits back and waits for the deluge>

This thread is hardly lefty bashing.

If you want to see some really abusive comments you should see some on my Facebook feed from people I can only assume are Corbyn supporters. Using misogynistic abusive terms for ex prime ministers would be quite mild.

Evilmags

Thing is, if he wins the leadership again, what exactly is he leading? 20, 30 MPs at most. If I were Tim Farron I´d change the party name to either Liberal or Democrat (as both is ultimately a contradiction), say give us 4 shadow cabinet posts and lets be the opposition. 

May is female and state school, not male and public school, so no need to show the moron the respect he can get. 

ennspek

May rinsed him at PMQs today.

Heartfeltdawn

impmann said:

As for him having a plan... well, yes he does. Look it up rather than bitching on here, repeating stuff you've seen on social media and in the gutter tabloids. Listen to the man - you may be surprised. He has been campaigning for a better world since before a lot of you were born...

<sits back and waits for the deluge>

Then I'll offer some lefty bashing as a lefty then. 

He might have a plan but it's certainly not broadcast well. Corbyn's own page on the Labour website hasn't had an updatesince September 2015. 

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/jeremy-corbyn

Where is the plan on the Labour website? I'm seeing plenty about how I can join, volunteer, and donate cash to them but not even a back of a fag packet plan there. 

http://www.labour.org.uk/

siremoon

impmann said:

Wow... lots of lefty bashing here.


...

Corbyn is a good man. A VERY good man. Is he a leader...? Well, lets give him a chance to lead... and when we do, can we have unbiased reporting. Perfect example: trident vote... yes he voted differently to a large proportion of the rest of his party but he gave them free vote on the subject because he believes (rightly) it should be a vote of conscience. But no, the BBC et al reported it as a "crushing defeat"... he knew the vote wouldn't go his way, and it was just a Tory ruse to undermine him just before the recess (power games) because the decision had already been taken!!

...

An alternative view is that he didn't Whip the Trident vote because a substantial proportion of Labour MPs would still have voted with the Government anyway.  That would have undermined him even more than them doing so in a free vote.

Chalky

randella said:

impmann said:

What is he doing to the party? And why is it his fault?

Making it unelectable.  The party's polling has been dismal since the start of his leadership.  If you don't think that's his fault then I'm lost for words.

I don't know why you're so worried though - he's nailed on to be re-elected leader and then we'll have all the time in the world to see just how good he is.

This in spades. The complete failure of Corbyn to make even a slight dent in the Tories in the week after the referendum tells you everything you need to know. Utterly ineffectual.

Think of it like this - he says he wants to help the poor but does nothing, not a single thing in that week to make himself the obvious leader to rise to power and ACTUALLY help them.

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

For those of us who find poverty distasteful, lefty bashing has become a necessity due to the economic illiteracy of their policies. Moreover the left is now in for a serious shock. 

No shock is too much for the Lib Dems... 

I wouldn't even dignify Corbyn's mouthflaps as "policy", as that word suggests a platform of substance and structured argument (ie.the absolute opposite that we do have with Labour now). The inconsequential nature of Corbyn Labour is what he will be remembered for. Geoffrey Clements with the Natural Law Party had more gravitas to him than Corbyn. 



PMQs was fabulous today. A few more weeks of this please. 

axisus

Old Labour wanted a cheap B&B but New Labour built a 5 star hotel. Corbyn wants to burn down the hotel so that they can start their cheap B&B again. Enjoy your beans on toast Corbynites.

randella

axisus said:

Enjoy your beans on toast Corbynites

If only it was just them looking at 15 years of beans on toast I wouldn't mind so much. The problem is that McDonnell and Milne's wet dream enabled by Corbyn, of a platform from which they can protest in perpetuity without any danger of actually having to bear any responsibility for their actions, is going to deny me (and millions more on the left) of a voice in our country's democracy. 

Myranda

siremoon said:

impmann said:

Wow... lots of lefty bashing here.


...

Corbyn is a good man. A VERY good man. Is he a leader...? Well, lets give him a chance to lead... and when we do, can we have unbiased reporting. Perfect example: trident vote... yes he voted differently to a large proportion of the rest of his party but he gave them free vote on the subject because he believes (rightly) it should be a vote of conscience. But no, the BBC et al reported it as a "crushing defeat"... he knew the vote wouldn't go his way, and it was just a Tory ruse to undermine him just before the recess (power games) because the decision had already been taken!!

...

An alternative view is that he didn't Whip the Trident vote because a substantial proportion of Labour MPs would still have voted with the Government anyway.  That would have undermined him even more than them doing so in a free vote.

Another alternative view is actually recalling the past. When he came in he faced open rebellion because he believed the exact opposite of letting his MPs vote their conscience... Only when he was told in no uncertain terms would it tear the party apart did he begrudgingly say that they could vote as they see fit when the time came. He wasn't standing up for beliefs in freedom of democracy he was sulking while people voted freely in spite of him 

CabbageCat

Evilmags said:

CabbageCat said:

What makes a good man a good man? Doing what you think is right? If so I think that Corbyn is indeed a good man. I also think Cameron was (is) a good man and so was (is) Blair.

On the basis of that incredibly well thought out and logical argument so is Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao...

That is my point. Everyone is both good and bad depending on perspective so it's meaningless to say he is or he isn't.

Evilmags

CabbageCat said:

Evilmags said:

CabbageCat said:

What makes a good man a good man? Doing what you think is right? If so I think that Corbyn is indeed a good man. I also think Cameron was (is) a good man and so was (is) Blair.

On the basis of that incredibly well thought out and logical argument so is Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao...

That is my point. Everyone is both good and bad depending on perspective so it's meaningless to say he is or he isn't.

Wow man, like deep...m

Chalky

Evilmags said:

CabbageCat said:

Evilmags said:

CabbageCat said:

What makes a good man a good man? Doing what you think is right? If so I think that Corbyn is indeed a good man. I also think Cameron was (is) a good man and so was (is) Blair.

On the basis of that incredibly well thought out and logical argument so is Osama Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao...

That is my point. Everyone is both good and bad depending on perspective so it's meaningless to say he is or he isn't.

Wow man, like deep...m

Hey man, where's the exit? Over there. Wow man, Way Out...

Clarky

Labour do look increasingly fkd don't they…
Corbyn is putting the party before the MP's, and if the party members want him at the helm then fine, that's up to them..
the prob is that the bulk of his 'staff' don't want him at the helm..
looks like the MP's and the people the MP's stand for [that are party members] are pulling in different directions..

makes me wonder;
are the Labour MP's no longer representing the views of the regular Labour voters?
or are the party members not a good snap shot of the regular [non-member] Labour voter?

either way, something is fundamentally broken

p90fool

Clarky said:

makes me wonder;
are the Labour MP's no longer representing the views of the regular Labour voters?
or are the party members not a good snap shot of the regular [non-member] Labour voter?

It's the latter in my opinion. I think the MPs have a fairly realistic idea of who they need to attract in order to form a government, and it's not the teachers and social workers who make up a lot of the membership. They play a part obviously, but they need many millions more than that.

randella

Clarky said:

Labour do look increasingly fkd don't they…
Corbyn is putting the party before the MP's, and if the party members want him at the helm then fine, that's up to them..
the prob is that the bulk of his 'staff' don't want him at the helm..
looks like the MP's and the people the MP's stand for [that are party members] are pulling in different directions..

makes me wonder;
are the Labour MP's no longer representing the views of the regular Labour voters?
or are the party members not a good snap shot of the regular [non-member] Labour voter?

either way, something is fundamentally broken

Some million-dollar questions in there.  Something *is* fundamentally broken, I think we can all agree on that.

Corbyn and the MP's (the PLP), plus the membership, *are* the party.  Corbyn has won an election fair and square cast among the membership and is consequently leader.  When this happened nearly a year ago, I thought Fair enough, I don't think he's the best guy, but Cameron's Tories are going nowhere, let's see how the little experiment pans out.

In that time, he's been consistently unable to assert any kind of convincing leadership amongst the PLP.  He's had a few of them openly hostile to him from the start, as have most leaders I suspect, but he's reportedly a complete pain in the arse to work with.  He's come up with no concrete policy (waiting to see what happens this morning), just what seems like vague musings on the machinations of a socialist movement.  I don't like soundbite politics, but he's just too airy-fairy for anyone's good.  He's been unable to broker any kind of peace between the left and right of the party.

He made a bollocks of the referendum campaign.  He's a known Eurosceptic, which is his inalienable right, but I think he was painted into a corner by official Labour party policy which dictated he had to campaign Remain.  At this point his much lauded principles seemed to desert him altogether, and he did half a job of it; said he was in, looked out, refused to share a platform with Cameron as part of a cross-party consensus and even went on holiday three weeks before the vote. 

His and, by extension Labour's, utterly lamentable polling amongst the wider electorate, the whole time, has been behind the Tories and behind Miliband's at equivalent points in the electoral cycle, and let's face it he's wasn't exactly anyone's idea of a world-beating politician.  ComRes currently have his crappy approval ratings dwarfed my May's even amongst Labour voters.

So then Brexit happened, a shedload of his MPs resigned in what Corbyn supporters rather melodramatically keep referring to as 'plotters' in a 'coup' (they need to folllow the news in Turkey a bit more closely).  Sure - some resigned as part of a planned bid to oust him, I think many more did so out of sheer frustration with his inability as a leader and lack of vision for the party. 

Then we had a vote of no confidence in which only 17.4% of his MPs supported him.  Thatcher and Duncan Smith both toppled with between two and three times that percentage of support in their party.

The electorate, who vote in MPs led by Corbyn to represent them in parliament, are not the party membership.  There are about 500,000 members, a record amount which is a great thing, however the electorate, who demonstrably think Corbyn's doing a shit job, are not going to vote for him.  So we have the ludicrous situation where he's pandering to a few hundred thousand party members and registered supporters, when what he needs is 14 million votes from us, the great unwashed.

It's unsustainable in anyone's eyes.

Clarky

p90fool said:

Clarky said:

makes me wonder;
are the Labour MP's no longer representing the views of the regular Labour voters?
or are the party members not a good snap shot of the regular [non-member] Labour voter?

It's the latter in my opinion. I think the MPs have a fairly realistic idea of who they need to attract in order to form a government, and it's not the teachers and social workers who make up a lot of the membership. They play a part obviously, but they need many millions more than that.

so if this is true, the bulk of Labour voters have a party being run by someone they don't want, that was put there by a minority yes?

randella

Clarky said:

p90fool said:

Clarky said:

makes me wonder;
are the Labour MP's no longer representing the views of the regular Labour voters?
or are the party members not a good snap shot of the regular [non-member] Labour voter?

It's the latter in my opinion. I think the MPs have a fairly realistic idea of who they need to attract in order to form a government, and it's not the teachers and social workers who make up a lot of the membership. They play a part obviously, but they need many millions more than that.

so if this is true, the bulk of Labour voters have a party being run by someone they don't want, that was put there by a minority yes?

You've said in one sentence what I couldn't manage in 500!

Bucket

Myranda said:

He also widened the gap between rich and poor year after year - more than Thatcher ever managed. 

Tuition fees. 

Tough on crime - by making more things criminal then boasting about increased arrest rates... 

Minimum wage laws are only as good as their provision for increasing with either inflation or CPI... 

Minimum wage laws don't benefit people if you then sign into law a regular increase in petrol prices driving the cost of everything up... While also telling train operators it's fine to increase prices way above inflation... So there was no better alternative to driving meanimg many of the poorest had to just suck up the increase in cost 

Blair might have worn a red tie to meetings, but he was far from a Labour PM... 

And that's without even contemplating the shitty war we got dragged into creating a world where ISIS was able to happen. The smiling sycophant was a horrible pm 

Yup.

I believe Blair is easily the worst PM in my lifetime, quite possibly the worst in our history.

Clarky

Bucket said:

Myranda said:

He also widened the gap between rich and poor year after year - more than Thatcher ever managed. 

Tuition fees. 

Tough on crime - by making more things criminal then boasting about increased arrest rates... 

Minimum wage laws are only as good as their provision for increasing with either inflation or CPI... 

Minimum wage laws don't benefit people if you then sign into law a regular increase in petrol prices driving the cost of everything up... While also telling train operators it's fine to increase prices way above inflation... So there was no better alternative to driving meanimg many of the poorest had to just suck up the increase in cost 

Blair might have worn a red tie to meetings, but he was far from a Labour PM... 

And that's without even contemplating the shitty war we got dragged into creating a world where ISIS was able to happen. The smiling sycophant was a horrible pm 

Yup.

I believe Blair is easily the worst PM in my lifetime, quite possibly the worst in our history.

I was born and grew up in inner London.. my grandfather was a staunch Labour man..
active too.. he was a councillor in Lewisham.. was Mayor of Lewisham once too..
so.. lil' Clarky grew up in a very left wing environment at school and at home..
I was almost trained to hate Thatcher and the Tories
so it made sense for me to vote Labour because it was something I thought was the right thing to do
I voted for Blair in his first term.. he promised so many good things..
and within 6 months he back tracked on pretty much all of them.. 
I can't recall the details because it was long ago, but I remember feeling quite cheated..
I started seeing him to be a bit of a snake
I never voted for him again..
then having seen what idiot Brown did when he took the helm, I never voted Labour again
all I saw in Labour was gross incompetence and that they couldn't be trusted..

I have very little faith in any of our parties and do not trust any of them..
so now I simply vote for the party I think will most likely fk up the country the least..

there is something about May though… not sure what it is..
but I have a feeling that she could be the right leader at the right time..
she seems to have real spine
and post Brexit, we need a leader that can pick up this country by the scruff of the neck, somehow hold everything together and try to launch it in some sort of direction that is as good as can be outside of the EU
I really do hope that she turns out to be the person that I hope her to be..