Changing Speakers (valves as well)

earwighoney

I've been thinking of changing speakers for the two amps I have, one of which is a 5w Ibanez TSA5 (single 6V6 power section) which has a Celestion Tube 10 and the other is a 40w Fender Blues Deluxe (a pair of 6L6GC's in the power section) which has it's stock Eminence 12" speaker.  
For the Ibanez TSA5, I've got in mind a 20w WGS Veteran 20, and for the Blues Deluxe, a WGS G12C/s, rated at 75 watts,  Does anyone have any experience of these speakers of WGS speakers?  All the reports of them I've read online seem to be very complimentary and the soundclips have really impressed my ears as well.  

Apologies for asking such a question but I have absolutely no idea about the impact of using different speakers in an amp. Changing speakers is something I had never really thought about, how much of an impact can it make?  Would the replacement speakers above 'improve' both of the amps in question? 
 
To save another thread, both of these amps need new valves as well.  I'm planning on buying the valves from Karltone, and will go the route of JJ for the power amp valves and I'm a bit confused by the number of choices for 12ax7 type valves!  Of the various types of JJ ECC83's they have in stock (factory, tested, balanced diodes, MG), and I've read the Tung Sol 12ax7 is supposed to be pretty good as well. 
Any recommendations for preamp valves?  

ICBM

The Tung-Sols are a nice clear-sounding valve, although they can be prone to noise and failure… JJs seem to be the other way round, more robust but sound crap! (To be fair, some people like them - I find them oddly muddy and harsh at the same time.)

You don't need balanced valves for any function in a guitar amp including the phase inverter (which is what they're often advertised for) except that there is some evidence that balanced valves may be a bit higher quality than average just because it's more likely that both halves will be closer to the design spec.

I'm a big fan of old-production valves - you don't need anything silly-money either, *any* properly tested old-production valve is likely to be better-sounding and longer-lasting than a new one, in my opinion - even though tone does vary between different brands.

earwighoney

ICBM said:

The Tung-Sols are a nice clear-sounding valve, although they can be prone to noise and failure… JJs seem to be the other way round, more robust but sound crap! (To be fair, some people like them - I find them oddly muddy and harsh at the same time.)

You don't need balanced valves for any function in a guitar amp including the phase inverter (which is what they're often advertised for) except that there is some evidence that balanced valves may be a bit higher quality than average just because it's more likely that both halves will be closer to the design spec.

I'm a big fan of old-production valves - you don't need anything silly-money either, *any* properly tested old-production valve is likely to be better-sounding and longer-lasting than a new one, in my opinion - even though tone does vary between different brands.

Thanks for the reply and information once again @ICBM, ;

Your impressions of the JJ 12ax7's seem to be in line with others I have come across and I will keep an eye for buying old production valves.  Are there any other places aside from Ebay where I could pick up older production valves?  

Would it be possible to ask what you think about replacing speakers as well? 

RiftAmps

I only have high praise for WGS speakers, I now use them as standard in all of my amps and always recommend them as upgrades.

I often think that the speaker is as much as 20% of your amp's tone, so always worth replacing if you feel it's not up to scratch.

drwiddly

A few years ago I bought two Wharfedale 2x12 cabs when PMT were knocking them out cheap when the company rebranded. They were well made and sounded OK but I always felt the speakers were a little bit bland and characterless.

last year I decided to upgrade the speakers. I wanted Celestion CL80's (because I really like the sound) but felt that they needed balancing with a more midrange rich speaker. I don't like Vintage 30's that much as I find the mid hump a bit too honky. I had a chat with the guy who runs Lean Business and he recommended the WGS Retro 30. I went with his suggestion and fitted a CL80 and a Retro 30 in each cab to form an X pattern when stacked. The cabs now sound phenomenal with real power and projection right across the frequency spectrum. Punchy low end and sweet top with no boxiness in the mids. I'm really pleased with the upgrade.

thomasross20

What are production valves?

I'm going to trust @ICBM with everything to do with my MJW when I get it. I didn't think there would have been too big a difference between different brands of the same type of valve.

Must admit I'm quite getting into all this amp chat, despite my best efforts to just "play" 

thomasross20

The valves in my mjw will all be cathode biased so no need for biasing when changing. 

Am I right in saying they're sort of  ballasted or "emitter degenerated" like in a bipolar (to stop thermal runaway)? 

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

The valves in my mjw will all be cathode biased so no need for biasing when changing. 

Am I right in saying they're sort of  ballasted or "emitter degenerated" like in a bipolar (to stop thermal runaway)? 

The bias is generated by the valve current passing through the cathode resistor, so as the current rises so does the bias voltage and so lowers the current, so there will be a stable point.

In theory that means that any valve should work the same, but in practice they aren't all made to the same spec and some will run too hot if they have too little 'gain' for the bias to be as effective as it should be - a common problem with old Voxes which were set up for Mullards, and often run way too hot with new-production valves. Martin knows this so his amps will be built not to do that .

earwighoney

RiftAmps said:

I only have high praise for WGS speakers, I now use them as standard in all of my amps and always recommend them as upgrades.

I often think that the speaker is as much as 20% of your amp's tone, so always worth replacing if you feel it's not up to scratch.

Thanks for the info about speakers contributing the amp's tone.  It was at your website where I first heard of their speakers! 

earwighoney

drwiddly said:

A few years ago I bought two Wharfedale 2x12 cabs when PMT were knocking them out cheap when the company rebranded. They were well made and sounded OK but I always felt the speakers were a little bit bland and characterless.

last year I decided to upgrade the speakers. I wanted Celestion CL80's (because I really like the sound) but felt that they needed balancing with a more midrange rich speaker. I don't like Vintage 30's that much as I find the mid hump a bit too honky. I had a chat with the guy who runs Lean Business and he recommended the WGS Retro 30. I went with his suggestion and fitted a CL80 and a Retro 30 in each cab to form an X pattern when stacked. The cabs now sound phenomenal with real power and projection right across the frequency spectrum. Punchy low end and sweet top with no boxiness in the mids. I'm really pleased with the upgrade.

Thanks for the reply and great to hear the choice of speakers worked really well in your Wharfedale cab.  

The general impression I've got is WGS's seems to have a very well represented midrange and seem to be fairly well balanced across the tonal spectrum; something I find appealing. 

crunchman

I put a Veteran 10 in a 68 Princeton Reverb.  Definitely better than the Celestion 10 30 it came with.

thomasross20

Thanks @ICBM, you are a well of knowledge!

thomasross20

Just on phase inverters now, similar theory to old  bipolar amplifier designs (which we still use at work - in fact we use mainly CMOS, DMOS, BJT. JFETs are rarer. I haven't touched modern FinFETs. Of course ours is all integrated onto a chip 5mm x 5mm or less). I'd actually be interested in designing my own one day, I just tend to leave the engineering at the door when I leave work. Probably what I should keep doing, to be honest - I love just playing