Tweed/early Marshall

pj310

From what I understand the Marshall JTMs were modified Bassman circuits so I ask... how similar/different are tweeds to early Marshalls? From what I've heard in demos of Tweed Deluxes and Plexis, the Fenders seem a bit looser in the lower end at high gain, and the Marshalls seem to have more punch and presence. A more aggressive, almost modern in comparison sound to the raw sag of the Tweeds. Is this what others have experienced?

And more relevant to me is this... is there any way to achieve these legendary tones at bedroom levels? I shall be getting my hands on the Tone King Ironman II Mini attenuator in a couple of months so this will help. But from what I've read Tweed Deluxes and JTMs are LOUD. Am I chasing the impossible if I want power tube crunch at home? Cheers!

ICBM

The first JTM45s are an exact copy of the 5F6-A Bassman, with the exception of the OT ratio - which gives the JTM a lot more negative feedback - and is exactly why the Marshall has a tighter, crunchier breakup with a sharper transition than the Fender. You could easily fit a switch to select the two different NFB values and get them very close. The other big difference is that the Bassman has four 10s in parallel in an open-back cab, whereas the Marshall usually has four 12s in series-parallel in a closed cab, which makes at least as much difference as the amp circuit.

You can easily get power valve overdrive with either of them using an attenuator, but at bedroom volume you're likely to find it loses a lot of dynamics - that's normal with an attenuator set very low.

pj310

Thanks @ICBM  I guess that's where I'm coming from... would on the edge of breakup on either be so loud that the attenuator would be working at extreme settings and losing tone? I guess what I'm hoping for is that the volume that breakup occurs is low enough for the attenuator to be bring the level down to bearable without being on extreme settings

ICBM

pj310 said:

Thanks @ICBM  I guess that's where I'm coming from... would on the edge of breakup on either be so loud that the attenuator would be working at extreme settings and losing tone? I guess what I'm hoping for is that the volume that breakup occurs is low enough for the attenuator to be bring the level down to bearable without being on extreme settings

Not unless you have extremely tolerant family/neighbours. To get a 30-40W amp down to 'bedroom' volume - typically well under 1W, more like 1/10th of a watt - means having any attenuator set to the point it will kill the dynamics. There's really no way round that - you *may* be able to find an attenuator you find tolerable, but it's pushing it. Even a Tweed Deluxe at 15W doesn't sound great when attenuated that far, in my opinion.

To be honest it's just a compromise too far, in my opinion. If you want valve-amp overdrive at low volumes you need to start with a master volume amp, power scaling, or a combination of both, with an attenuator as well. And even then it will never sound the same as it does up loud.

pj310

Thanks for the advice @ICBM Perhaps a 1 watt "clone" would be better for me, or at least get me closer to what I'm chasing...
Any love for the Marshall JTM1s? If not I could always ask one of our great amp builders if they offer anything of the sort

Neckwringer

How about this......


Works for me.....

Richardj

Cornell Plexi 7 or Romany could work for you, the built in power scaling lets you drive them at home friendly levels and they sound great.

pj310

@Neckwringer thanks but I've got a lovely Princeton clone that gets me all the cleans I need at the level I use it at.

@Richardj these did cross my mind, the only thing is that the Romany sounded VERY farty to me at low power scaling... I wonder if that is consistent with the Plexi 7 too

Sassafras

I never thought I'd hear myself say this but wouldn't your best hope for low volume playing be an amp modeler? 

ICBM

I would say the best bet is a good master volume amp and an attenuator.

The two working together can get you very good big-amp sounds at low volume, as long as you don't try to go to low with each control alone. Power scaling might help too, although I prefer attenuation. The more control you have at several different places in the chain, the better.

I don't think small amps sound like big amps, and unless they're truly low-powered (eg the ZVex Nano) they're still going to be 'loud' for bedroom use, at least with a reasonably efficient speaker - and even that is surprisingly loud, I had to make an attenuator for mine .

Babones

pj310 said:

@Neckwringer thanks but I've got a lovely Princeton clone that gets me all the cleans I need at the level I use it at.

@Richardj these did cross my mind, the only thing is that the Romany sounded VERY farty to me at low power scaling... I wonder if that is consistent with the Plexi 7 too

Different circuits. The Plexi 7 is tighter in every way. IMO&E, the lower you set the power, the more you need to lower the volume too.

Neckwringer

Babones said:

pj310 said:

@Neckwringer thanks but I've got a lovely Princeton clone that gets me all the cleans I need at the level I use it

I wasn't thinking about cleans.....this thing does edge of breakup in the home realisticly imho.....

hotpickups

I must say that I'm amazed at the Ironman II attenuator on my newly acquired Tone King Imperial mk2. I can now crank the amp at bedroom levels. The sound can be tweedy or marshally

pj310

@ICBM would a master volume amp not just give preamp saturation though? I was hoping a low wattage amp run lowish to get some power tube breakup and then use an attenuator to bring the level down would be ideal if possible. But I think I'll need a 1 watt amp with an attenuator to get what I'm looking for. 

@Babones that's ideal then I think this might be what I'm looking for.

@hotpickups that's great I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on the mini

ICBM

pj310 said:

@ICBM would a master volume amp not just give preamp saturation though?

Yes. But that often sounds better at low volume.

pj310

Ah ok gotcha