Microsoft: doing things right?

randella

FX_Munkee said:

randella said:

There's a reason the .NET framework languages are some of the most commonly used in the world.  I can't speak for VS Code, but in VS Pro 2012 (the latest version I have available) the IDE is a thing of beauty.  The Intellisense, in particular, has some pretty good party tricks - once you've defined all your classes, propertybags, vars and wotnot you can literally type whole lines of code by repeatedly hammering the Enter key and banging a semicolon at the end.

If you think Intellisense is good you should really try Visual Assist, it's far better and it's refactoring tools are invaluable.

I've tried Visual Assist in the past and liked it, but the 30-day trial expired and my employer's not the best when it comes to paying for tools.  They're excellent in every other respect, mind - but dear God what I wouldn't give for a copy of Redgate's SQL/SQL Data Compare.

monquixote

randella said:

FX_Munkee said:

randella said:

There's a reason the .NET framework languages are some of the most commonly used in the world.  I can't speak for VS Code, but in VS Pro 2012 (the latest version I have available) the IDE is a thing of beauty.  The Intellisense, in particular, has some pretty good party tricks - once you've defined all your classes, propertybags, vars and wotnot you can literally type whole lines of code by repeatedly hammering the Enter key and banging a semicolon at the end.

If you think Intellisense is good you should really try Visual Assist, it's far better and it's refactoring tools are invaluable.

I've tried Visual Assist in the past and liked it, but the 30-day trial expired and my employer's not the best when it comes to paying for tools.  They're excellent in every other respect, mind - but dear God what I wouldn't give for a copy of Redgate's SQL/SQL Data Compare.

I really don't get people being stingy with tools. 

Luckily where I am they are usually happy to take it on trust that if you say you need a tool you need it. 

PolarityMan

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

gdb and dbx are fucking horrendous. Do you know how hard it is even to do simple things like view a vector?

I have to work on embedded platforms where the only debugging available is redirecting a printf down a serial port!

To be fair sometimes littering the code with printf's is the fastest way. The serial port thing is definitely yucky though.

monquixote

PolarityMan said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

gdb and dbx are fucking horrendous. Do you know how hard it is even to do simple things like view a vector?

I have to work on embedded platforms where the only debugging available is redirecting a printf down a serial port!

To be fair sometimes littering the code with printf's is the fastest way. The serial port thing is definitely yucky though.

Yeah I'm actually a fan of printf debugging.

I've had a few issues that only manifest at full optimisation (people missing the "volatile" keyword for example) that make me not always trust debug builds. 

FX_Munkee

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

gdb and dbx are fucking horrendous. Do you know how hard it is even to do simple things like view a vector?

I have to work on embedded platforms where the only debugging available is redirecting a printf down a serial port!

To be fair sometimes littering the code with printf's is the fastest way. The serial port thing is definitely yucky though.

Yeah I'm actually a fan of printf debugging.

I've had a few issues that only manifest at full optimisation (people missing the "volatile" keyword for example) that make me not always trust debug builds. 

You 2 better be removing those printf's in release compiles otherwise I will find you and I will kill you.

monquixote

FX_Munkee said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

gdb and dbx are fucking horrendous. Do you know how hard it is even to do simple things like view a vector?

I have to work on embedded platforms where the only debugging available is redirecting a printf down a serial port!

To be fair sometimes littering the code with printf's is the fastest way. The serial port thing is definitely yucky though.

Yeah I'm actually a fan of printf debugging.

I've had a few issues that only manifest at full optimisation (people missing the "volatile" keyword for example) that make me not always trust debug builds. 

You 2 better be removing those printf's in release compiles otherwise I will find you and I will kill you.

That's what the preprocessor is for.

digitalscream

Gotta say, I didn't think this thread would attract this much interest...

randella

digitalscream said:

Gotta say, I didn't think this thread would attract this much interest...

Hahaha - programmers in 'loose end on a Friday' shocker

PolarityMan

FX_Munkee said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

gdb and dbx are fucking horrendous. Do you know how hard it is even to do simple things like view a vector?

I have to work on embedded platforms where the only debugging available is redirecting a printf down a serial port!

To be fair sometimes littering the code with printf's is the fastest way. The serial port thing is definitely yucky though.

Yeah I'm actually a fan of printf debugging.

I've had a few issues that only manifest at full optimisation (people missing the "volatile" keyword for example) that make me not always trust debug builds. 

You 2 better be removing those printf's in release compiles otherwise I will find you and I will kill you.

Actually we cant even check in printf as our static analyser throws it out as a security violation.....snprintf on the other hand.....

eSully

Going back to your original point you should check out the blogs of people like Scott Hanselman (Hanselminutes is also a decent tech podcast worth checking out), at least within the .Net teams within Microsoft there's been a very conscious effort to open source (including the new core framework) and involve the community more.

Sporky

If it's any consolation, the Windows 10 Mail app is appalling, whereas Windows Live Mail (which it replaced) was actually quite good.

monquixote

Sporky said:

If it's any consolation, the Windows 10 Mail app is appalling, whereas Windows Live Mail (which it replaced) was actually quite good.

Bizarrely we've just moved over to the latest version of Office at work. All the Mac versions are absolutely flawless, but the Windows version seems to have masses of bugs in it.

PolarityMan

Sporky said:

If it's any consolation, the Windows 10 Mail app is appalling, whereas Windows Live Mail (which it replaced) was actually quite good.

When ever anyone brings up awful email programs I cant help but point out that i am forced to use lotus notes

digitalscream

PolarityMan said:

Sporky said:

If it's any consolation, the Windows 10 Mail app is appalling, whereas Windows Live Mail (which it replaced) was actually quite good.

When ever anyone brings up awful email programs I cant help but point out that i am forced to use lotus notes

I had to use Notes for four years, and I still can't bring myself to regard it as an email program.

One of the development teams I was on at the time decided that it was easier and far more effective to just have a folder each on the file server, and if we wanted to email each other we'd just put a text file in the appropriate directory.

Sporky

digitalscream said:

I had to use Notes for four years, and I still can't bring myself to regard it as an email program.

I taught Lotus Notes. It's a workflow management and database system.

That some eejit (possibly at Lotus) managed to kludge together something approximating a broken email system is neither here nor there!

PolarityMan

the databases are even worse than the email!

digitalscream

Sporky said:

digitalscream said:

I had to use Notes for four years, and I still can't bring myself to regard it as an email program.

I taught Lotus Notes. It's a workflow management and database system.

That some eejit (possibly at Lotus) managed to kludge together something approximating a broken email system is neither here nor there!

From my experience, it's not a particularly good database system either. As for workflow...it might be good when used properly, but it rarely is

Sporky

I didn't mean to suggest it was good at either of those!

monquixote

PolarityMan said:

Sporky said:

If it's any consolation, the Windows 10 Mail app is appalling, whereas Windows Live Mail (which it replaced) was actually quite good.

When ever anyone brings up awful email programs I cant help but point out that i am forced to use lotus notes

How come you're still using it.

Is it really hard to migrate from or something?

PolarityMan

Dog food innit