A very surprising (to me) and interesting day.

Cirrus

ecc83 said:

Glad you had fun Adrian but as one who has spent 1/2 a day many times getting an A/B test done of just a COUPLE of components I have to say, WTGR, that your speaker tests were less than useful to most of us?

There are of course an almost infinite way to skin this moggy but might I suggest a couple of MOs?

1)First choose a well known speaker that virtually everyone has heard/has access to. None better than the V30 (but give precise details of the specific model)

2)Rig an A/B switch to flip between the "standard" and the speaker under test.

3)Choose just two amps. I would suggest a "raw" no feedback design such as the AC30 and a 50 watter with NFB.

MO. Get as good a sound as you can with one amp and the V30. Flip to the test speaker and note the differences. Snap a picky of amp settings. RECORD all the sounds! (SDC mics fixed distance from test and reference speakers)

I would also strongly suggest the use of a sound level meter. It is a well known fact that the "loudest thing" is always the "bestest thing"!

I could get even more pedantic and say speakers should be tested through a high power (100Wish) solid state "hi fi" power amp to eliminate the  effects of valves, transformers and feedback.

Not knocking Ade'! LUUURVE to have the time,energy and ears to do it but I think I would get through only ONE speaker and two amps A DAY!

I have long thought that the guitar amp/speaker/pup game was ripe for a thesis?

Dave.

And after you'd gone through that process you could write a great paper on the objective sound differences between speakers but you'd have learned next to nothing about what speakers you actually like and which you could make good music with. 

ThorpyFX

ecc83 said:

Glad you had fun Adrian but as one who has spent 1/2 a day many times getting an A/B test done of just a COUPLE of components I have to say, WTGR, that your speaker tests were less than useful to most of us?

Dave.

 I guess i wasn't really giving a finite answer as to what i thought was best so i can see why it wouldn't be useful to the majority. I guess i was just blown away by how good all the speakers are and how much a difference they make to you sound.

The purpose of me doing it is to nail down the speakers i like best with certain amps, hence why i didn't do anything more scientific.

 RiftAmps said:

Imagine that you're working in a recording studio, mixing a few tracks.

You've just spent a good hour carefully shaping the lead vocal track, a small EQ adjustment here, a little noise reduction there, some slight compression to smooth out the top end, it sounds beautiful, glorious and outright amazing.

Suddenly, a record label exec decides he wants to put a 7-band Master EQ after all of your other effects and he gets to control the settings. Regardless of what you've done before, that 'master' EQ will have the biggest effect on the sound. You might get lucky and it'll make things sound OK, but it'll probably sound dump.

THIS is exactly what a guitar speaker does. I estimate that the speaker is as much as 25% of your tone. However, we are lucky that we can choose our '7-band EQ' and can try others with relative ease, unlike our poor sound engineer.

yeah i can see how this would be a massive ballache for amp designers....

Dave_Mc said:

Which redcoat was it, out of interest?

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.


professorben said:

Out of interest, what pairing did suit the V30 the best? 

The Mesa Dual Rectifier paired best with the V30 for me, i think that amp needs the enhanced mids the V30 offers, otherwise it can be a bit dark sounding. thats a personal preference thing though.

professorben

Cheers. 
I can see why they chose the V30 for my 6L6 Engl then. 

ThePrettyDamned

I wonder if the boutique amp industry owes a lot to premium speakers. 

Trying a matchless or bad cat against an ac30 pitches remarkably similar sounding amps (though different enough, for sure -probably not the best example tbh) but one has a celestion greenback and the other has an alnico gold . Of course one sounds more blanketed. 

Bygone_Tones

There is a lot of love for the G12H/V30 combination over on the Marshall forum. Im assuming thats the standard anniversary model G12H.

ecc83

Cirrus said:

ecc83 said:

Glad you had fun Adrian but as one who has spent 1/2 a day many times getting an A/B test done of just a COUPLE of components I have to say, WTGR, that your speaker tests were less than useful to most of us?

There are of course an almost infinite way to skin this moggy but might I suggest a couple of MOs?

1)First choose a well known speaker that virtually everyone has heard/has access to. None better than the V30 (but give precise details of the specific model)

2)Rig an A/B switch to flip between the "standard" and the speaker under test.

3)Choose just two amps. I would suggest a "raw" no feedback design such as the AC30 and a 50 watter with NFB.

MO. Get as good a sound as you can with one amp and the V30. Flip to the test speaker and note the differences. Snap a picky of amp settings. RECORD all the sounds! (SDC mics fixed distance from test and reference speakers)

I would also strongly suggest the use of a sound level meter. It is a well known fact that the "loudest thing" is always the "bestest thing"!

I could get even more pedantic and say speakers should be tested through a high power (100Wish) solid state "hi fi" power amp to eliminate the  effects of valves, transformers and feedback.

Not knocking Ade'! LUUURVE to have the time,energy and ears to do it but I think I would get through only ONE speaker and two amps A DAY!

I have long thought that the guitar amp/speaker/pup game was ripe for a thesis?

Dave.

And after you'd gone through that process you could write a great paper on the objective sound differences between speakers but you'd have learned next to nothing about what speakers you actually like and which you could make good music with. 

Yes, you would because I said "tune the amp to get the best sound from each speaker" .

I was just trying to inject a little order into something that is SO vastly complex that nobody would end up with a valid idea of a good amp/speaker combination. And I still maintain that you cannot make meaningful comparisons on that many speaker and amplifiers in a week, leave alone one day!

Fork! You need a hour off every hour to let the TTS in the ears subside!

Dave. (aka pedantic old fart) 

Cabicular

I'm enjoying the Neo cream backs 

ThorpyFX

Cabicular said:

I'm enjoying the Neo cream backs 

They are a really good speaker, light, but with a massive sound. very highly recommended.

Beexter

ThorpyFX said:

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.

It certainly is. I've been using one for a few years now and it really helped get some extra volume out of a low wattage amp.

How did the Wizard compare to the Creamback for volume / tone @ThorpyFX? ;

Dave_Mc

ThorpyFX said:

Dave_Mc said:

Which redcoat was it, out of interest?

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.

Thanks. I haven't tried that one, it's (more or less) their G12H30-style speaker, isn't it?

ThorpyFX

Beexter said:

ThorpyFX said:

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.

It certainly is. I've been using one for a few years now and it really helped get some extra volume out of a low wattage amp.

How did the Wizard compare to the Creamback for volume / tone @ThorpyFX? ;

definetly more efficient than the cream back, and not as smooth but its a great speaker in its own right.

Drew_TNBD

Here's a question - is speaker breakup a real thing, and if it is, is it even musical?

ICBM

Drew_TNBD said:

Here's a question - is speaker breakup a real thing, and if it is, is it even musical?

Depends what you mean by breakup.

Speaker cone distortion - real, happens at almost any power input, and is what we like about guitar speakers.

Actual cone excursion breakup, or 'cone cry' - when the cone is pushed beyond its mechanical limits and starts to very seriously distort - real, and not musical-sounding usually… it sounds like the speaker is broken. Because it very soon will be, usually.

What most people seem to mean by 'speaker breakup' - the nice character you get when the speaker is pushed harder than the first but not as hard as the second - is more a function of thermal compression.

Beexter

Dave_Mc said:

ThorpyFX said:

Dave_Mc said:

Which redcoat was it, out of interest?

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.

Thanks. I haven't tried that one, it's (more or less) their G12H30-style speaker, isn't it?

I'm fairly certain it is their equivalent of a G12H but the wattage handling is higher (I think it's about 75w IIRC). Could it be more akin to the G12H100? I have a single Wizard in an MJW cab and it's worked great with all the amps I've used it with. 
Tone is so subjective but I've found it to be really balanced across the tone range and sounds equally good clean or distorted. 
Eminence claim a sensitivity of around 103dB - some will say they exaggerate these figures but as a fairly long-term owner,  I believe it- it's very,  very loud and if you want to squeeze maximum volume out of a low wattage amp, the Wizard should be a consideration. 
Steve Carr used to fit them as standard to the Rambler, which is renowned for it's detailed 3d clean tone.

ICBM

Beexter said:

Eminence claim a sensitivity of around 103dB - some will say they exaggerate these figures but as a fairly long-term owner,  I believe it- it's very,  very loud and if you want to squeeze maximum volume out of a low wattage amp, the Wizard should be a consideration.

They are loud, but no louder than a 100dB V30. I find Eminence exaggerate by about 2-3dB compared to Celestion, for similar voicings. The voicing does make a difference too - eg both the V30 and the G12H-30 are listed as 100dB, but the V30 sounds louder because of its midrange spike and slightly dirty tone.

I don't really think any of the Eminences sound exactly like the Celestions they're supposedly similar to either - they have their own characteristic sound. I mostly much prefer Celestions, but there are a couple of Eminences I like in particular amps.

Moltisanti

there's a reason why lots of touring (heavier) bands have used PRS > Mesa Dual Rec > V30 for the last 20 years, it's a combination that really works for that huge thick sound.
Like Les Paul > Marshall Plexi > Greenback is another magic combination, but if you put V30s in front of a Plexi they can sound very harsh - it's all about finding complimentary parts of the chain

impmann

When I swapped the Alnico blues in my AC30s for Greenbacks, a few of my friends thought I'd gone gaga...

"Everyone" *knows* that Blues are the best speakers for AC30s, right?

Well, I found that the way I used them - Normal channel, just before the onset of proper overdrive (dig in with buckers and it would crunch/clip a bit) with effects - the blues sounded harsh, aggressive and sat 'on top' of the mix. With the Greenbacks (which I have to admit was a happy accident at first) the sound smoothed out, and whilst was still strident (they were AC30s after all) the tone sat in the mix better.

I'm not suggesting it would work for everyone - but I preferred the resultant sound. A/B-ing between the two sets of speakers (Greens/Blues) just reinforced my preference.

Dave_Mc

Beexter said:

Dave_Mc said:

ThorpyFX said:

Dave_Mc said:

Which redcoat was it, out of interest?

The wizard, which was REALLY loud! a very efficient speaker.

Thanks. I haven't tried that one, it's (more or less) their G12H30-style speaker, isn't it?

I'm fairly certain it is their equivalent of a G12H but the wattage handling is higher (I think it's about 75w IIRC). Could it be more akin to the G12H100? I have a single Wizard in an MJW cab and it's worked great with all the amps I've used it with. 
Tone is so subjective but I've found it to be really balanced across the tone range and sounds equally good clean or distorted. 
Eminence claim a sensitivity of around 103dB - some will say they exaggerate these figures but as a fairly long-term owner,  I believe it- it's very,  very loud and if you want to squeeze maximum volume out of a low wattage amp, the Wizard should be a consideration. 
Steve Carr used to fit them as standard to the Rambler, which is renowned for it's detailed 3d clean tone.

Thanks. I don't know, I haven't tried them- like ICBM most of the ones I've tried have been a bit optimistic on the volume rating (and also supposedly on the wattage rating too), but that doesn't necessaily mean it's true for the wizard as well. I'd tend to agree they don't sound exactly like celestions (or whatever they're based on) but I've generally liked most of the ones I've tried.

normula1

I really like the A-type too

ThorpyFX

normula1 said:

I really like the A-type too

It's funny, because it's such a. Well priced speaker I think some may overlook it. But I think in a cab with a greenback it'd sound really great for a very full sound