Braz boards , what's the deal?

armitaan

I get that people think Braz boards are the best, but does the uptick in price used and new from the big brands make sense? It was about a £100 uptick on price on a custom made strat build I was offered  so struggling to understand the massive markup on lot of guitars out there ?

FelineGuitars

You'll be lucky to get any South American rosewood soon at all as it has become listed as Appendix II by CITIES.
Rose wood in general has become under fire as the Chinese are doing tons of illegal logging to satisfy the nouveau riche's desire for replicas of furniture from 200+ years ago that used to be made for royalty from a dark coloured wood similar to Paduak.

Danielsguitars

Because it's rare and hard to get hold of now

I've done a fair bit of tone testing and it's splitting hairs really

I'd put Amazon rosewood and madagascan right up there with it, easily as good imo

I've got a few old braz boards and I still tell people the same thing

You couldn't tell anyway, Amazon goes dark like Brazilian and when the figured madagascan goes dark it looks like an old burst board anyway

I wouldn't get hung up on it

WezV

Chances are that Braz board you have been offered is an inferior piece too... but £100 up charge is not unreasonable, more dictated by the material price than anything else

i would reject 75% of the stuff PRS owners pay a premium for

skaguitar

I have a 2003 oxblood R4 with an Brazillian board ( within the verified serial numbers ) and have owned 2 R8's a LP deluxe and a LP Classic...and I can say that to me...the braz board doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in tone...the R4 is the best LP I have owned but I wouldn't say it's because of the board...it's the pick ups...they are loud and powerful in this guitar and it feels nicely balanced on a strap even though it weighs over 9 pounds it doesn't feel like it.
Having said that...if I were to sell it I would definitely include an upcharge in the price because of the braz board as that is what the market dictates and I'm certainly not going to stitch myself up and sell it for less just because I don't think it makes any difference...

Gassage

I have a number of guitars with BRW.

It makes no difference at all - other than rarity.

Ironically, I think Indian Rosewood is more dramatically figured and colourful.

Neil

I think nowadays it is just for bragging rights.

Years ago all sorts of cheapo guitars were made with Brazilian boards, not a big thing then.

Of course like most things, with rarity comes desirability.

Jock68

I believe that Madagascar Rosewood is now also on the CITES list, so hard to come by even with the correct documentation.

Whitecat

If you buy something with Braz, unless it comes with all the CITES paperwork, you theoretically could have a hard time moving it out of this country for any reason whatsoever in the future (which includes limiting your resale market). Bear that in mind!

johnhe

There was a very interesting ToneQuest interview with Dave Grissom about the creation of the McCarty and DGT models. In the interview, Grissom claims that he has tested various woods, and that modern Brazilian rosewood doesn't sound anything like the great old stuff and that other woods are preferable tonewoods nowadays.

Edit: Regardless of what I've read, like in the above interview, I would still fancy Brazilian RW if I was buying a lovely, expensive guitar. We guitar players are a daft bunch.

slacker

Neil said:

I think nowadays it is just for bragging rights.

Years ago all sorts of cheapo guitars were made with Brazilian boards, not a big thing then.

Of course like most things, with rarity comes desirability.

I've got a student model ES125 with  Brazilian board. It does look nice but not much more than my other guitars and I don't go wow I can feel that Brazilian.

I've just read the last sentence again. I've left it in, have fun.

guitars4you

There is good and bad rosewood be it Brazilian or Indian - not just about colour or grain but resonance - I recall a visit to PRS and Paul's private stash of wood and a piece of Brz rosewood that was totally dead - just did not ring and sounded like a wet cardboard box

On its own a piece of Brz rosewood will not transform any guitar so it is still about the sum total of the parts

However Brz r/wood is associated with the glory years for many builders, be it Martin, Fender early 60's period and Gibson so easy to build up some magical status

However in a simple way a 'tone block' is about as straight forward as it gets, so why do or did some of the finest orchestra instruments like a Marimba utilise Brazilian rosewood - after all you are just hitting a tuned cube of wood  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - so must be something in it

crunchman

FelineGuitars said:

You'll be lucky to get any South American rosewood soon at all as it has become listed as Appendix II by CITIES.
Rose wood in general has become under fire as the Chinese are doing tons of illegal logging to satisfy the nouveau riche's desire for replicas of furniture from 200+ years ago that used to be made for royalty from a dark coloured wood similar to Paduak.

Trade is allowed in Appendix II species.  This is from the CITES website:

Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species whose specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV of the Convention)

I'd imagine that other species of rosewood will get more expensive but they will still be available. As far as I know there is plantation grown rosewood available.  How it compares with old growth wild stuff I don't know.

On the subject of plantation grown stuff, the first site I looked at was Wikipedia, which says this:

In addition, Article VII of CITES states that specimens of animals listed in Appendix I that are bred in captivity for commercial purposes are treated as Appendix II. The same applies for specimens of Appendix I plants artificially propagated for commercial purposes.

If Wikipedia is correct (and it might not be), and if I'm interpreting that correctly you could grow BRW on a plantation and sell it commercially. 

Links here:
https://www.cites.org/eng/app/index.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES

Edit: If the US declines to give re-export certificates to Fender and Gibson then our home grown guitar industry will take off.

CloudNine

I have guitars with BRW, MRW and EIR. All great boards, but the best of the bunch is an EIR one, which is suggested to be 'Master grade'. I normally scoff at that sort of thing really, but this is a great piece of wood, you can just see and feel the quality. I would also say the worst boards I have ever seen, were EIR ones. Some really dried out grey looking stuff.

In terms of the best chance of getting a nice piece of wood for a board at this point in time, I think Madagascar Rosewood might be the way to go. Harder to find great bits of EIR or BRW, in my opinion.

Sassafras

I just see fretboard wood as a sort of bed that anchors the frets, As long as it's hard and dense, will it make much difference to the tone?
After all, it's only a small percentage of the wood that makes up a guitar.

crunchman

Sassafras said:

I just see fretboard wood as a sort of bed that anchors the frets, As long as it's hard and dense, will it make much difference to the tone?
After all, it's only a small percentage of the wood that makes up a guitar.

It does make a difference.  It's subtle but you can hear a difference between a maple board and rosewood board Strat.  I know there are often construction differences as well - maple is often a one piece neck without a separate fingerboard - but there is still a subtle difference.

High end guitars with ebony boards (electric or acoustic) do seem to sound a little different to a similar guitar with a rosewood board.  To me, the ebony seems to have a bit more top end, and sound a little less warm.

richardhomer

I think it's all part of the vintage mystique.

When I owned a '63 Strat, I had no idea there were different types of Rosewood - all I knew was that it was an exceptional sounding guitar. BR was used at the time as it was readily available - I doubt anyone involved in guitar making then actually thought it sounded better.

Now of course, every detail is poured over - and as BR is a part of many, classic, 'Golden Era' guitars - it's become a 'must have' for some well-heeled players.

Had IR become as hard to source and trade instead, I reckon it would have become the material everyone wanted....

DLM

richardhomer said:

Now of course, every detail is poured over

Here is an excellent example of every detail (of the finish) having been poured over: http://www.mattsmusic.com/16948.jpg

impmann

TBH, does it make any difference to the tone if you have Braz or Indian Rosewood on your fingerboard? No, not really.

End of argument for me.

Sassafras

Before I joined this forum I never realised there were so many things I should be obsessing over.

Bridgehouse

Sassafras said:

Before I joined this forum I never realised there were so many things I should be obsessing over.