Intonation issue ~ string gauge related, or what else ¿?¿

Lewy

ChrisMusic said:

Top marks for your sleuthing skills @Lewy , yes it is indeed.

I didn't want to name the maker publicly if there were any issues which would cast any shadow on his name, for obvious reasons, but your last post suggests that the intonation issue is a simple matter of someone else's inappropriate changes, which sits fine with me, and is easier to address.

As to photos, I didn't realise any were available.  I couldn't access the goo.gl link.  I don't know why I always get a blank page with no content ?

How did you access the video, I would love to take a look (maybe PM me?).

I have only just collected it, although the deal was done some time ago, a house move and transfer via a local family member kept the anticipation building.  Nice easy transaction and lovely chap to deal with.

I thought that I saw a similar "forward leaning saddle on a Lowden, or am I mistaken, so I thought that it was correct, my bad.  You are right about it being a later change, not only does it not fit right across, but the finish is non consistent with the guitar's build quality.

Why do you think someone would have done this ?

I just accessed the pics following the link on the thread so if you can't see those then I don't have an alternative I'm afraid.

Who know why someone would have put this saddle in - they were obviously a bit clueless as having an ill-fitting saddle with a lean forwards is a good way to bust through the front edge of your bridge over time. Probably wanted to change the action in some way.

It's a decent guitar by the look of it. It deserves a new saddle and basic set up by a proper luthier/repairer really. Absolutely no disrespect intended here, but if you didn't spot the saddle issue you're not really the person for the job in terms of getting it playing and sounding its best....  

ChrisMusic

So earlier today, before the forward lean was identified, I did a little more "cheating", or lateral thinking as I prefer to call it.  Using a bridge pin from my Blueridge wedged behind the saddle I created an alternative saddle crown, positioned further back than even correcting the lean would allow, on just the lowest two strings.

The upshot of this makeshift experiment is almost perfect intonation on the 5th, and only a bit sharp on the 6th.  Due to the conical nature of the bridge pin used, the offset from the current forward leaning position is approx 3mm2 on the 5th string and approx 3mm7 on the 6th.  The mathematical model I used suggests that it still need to move a further 0mm13 on the 5th and 0mm9 on the 6th, which feels about right to me.

Realigning the saddle to perpendicular would move the saddle crown by about 1mm or maybe a bit over, so still not perfect given the above calculations, but may be in the realm of an acceptable level of compromise for a straight bar saddle ?

Obviously, having gone this far, I am keen to make it play as well as possible, and fine tune both intonation and timbre, (which attributes appear to have the duality of being both rabbit hole and crocodile, who knew !?!   )

So as always, any further advise to make this the best guitar it can be would be gratefully appreciated  

ChrisMusic

Lewy said:

It's a decent guitar by the look of it. It deserves a new saddle and basic set up by a proper luthier/repairer really. Absolutely no disrespect intended here, but if you didn't spot the saddle issue you're not really the person for the job in terms of getting it playing and sounding its best....  

Comment taken as you intended, you are right of course.  However I have worked a fair bit on electric guitars in my "previous life*", but not on acoustics at all, or as you say I would have spotted this as something wrong at the outset.

I thought I had seen it on a Lowden, so my alarms didn't sound.  I did raise it as a query in one of my earlier posts "and the perpendicular is angled towards the sound hole" just in case.  Maybe I should get out of the habit of using ten words where only two will do (but where's the fun in that?) !

Everything I learnt back then*, be it about music, the music industry, or working on (electric) guitars themselves, was largely through trial and the occasional error, there was no tFB to turn to back then, nor anyone more knowledgable in my local area, so forgive my naive enthusiasm, but I am keen to keep learning, with a little help from my friends this time around  

So, yes, I am keen to follow this through myself, with care...

ICBM

Lowdens do have the saddles set at an angle, but the other way - 'leaning back' so the string force is more nearly parallel straight down through the saddle rather than trying to force it forwards.

If the saddle is tall enough that it's leaning forward it could also be causing the top to belly up and twist forwards more than it should, which may further shorten the string length - although again I would doubt it was enough to put the intonation out that much on its own.

It does sound like the bridge is in the wrong place now, anyway - whose fault that is is largely irrelevant, it just needs to be fixed. If you can get enough change of position using an overlap bridge I would do that, and if not then you've really got no choice but to fill the saddle slot and have it moved - from your measurements it sounds too far out for a wider saddle to do the job even with a compensated ridge.

In fact, a Lowden-style angled saddle slot would probably help a lot because it will reduce the forward bending force on the saddle too. You'll need quite a good luthier to do that successfully but I think it will be worth it.

AliGorie

I need picies now guys - I'm lost, I know what Lowden split and 1 piece saddles are like and frankly I've NEVER seen forward (or backward) slopping saddle in a qualaty guitar - that is unless someone who didn't know what they were doing had replaced it.

ICBM

It's quite hard to find a good pic online, but I think this just about shows it:

http://www.12fret.com/wp-content/gallery/lowden-o-35-cx-2006-ss/lowden-O-35-cx-2006-ss-bridge-1.jpg

Notice that the saddles are leaning back away from the camera so the break angle is roughly equal on either side, so the force from the strings is transmitted down the saddle rather than trying to bend it over forwards.

Both Lowden and Takamine use the twin-saddle approach but it isn't strictly necessary. You can see that the offset between the two is no greater than the front-to-back width of a single saddle cut as shown earlier, the back edge of the EADG saddle is parallel with the front edge of the BE one so the offset of the two centre lines is the same as the thickness of one saddle.

AliGorie

ICBM said:

It's quite hard to find a good pic online, but I think this just about shows it:

Both Lowden and Takamine use the twin-saddle approach but it isn't strictly necessary. You can see that the offset between the two is no greater than the front-to-back width of a single saddle cut as shown earlier, the back edge of the EADG saddle is parallel with the front edge of the BE one so the offset of the two centre lines is the same as the thickness of one saddle.

like this ?
 

ICBM

It's hard to clearly see, but yes I think so. It looks like the B saddle top is at the back edge and the G at the front, although it looks like it might be individually 'stepped' rather than two straight lines.

That must be quite an old Lowden if it doesn't have the two-piece saddle.

AliGorie

ICBM, interestingly GL had designed the split saddle into his work from day one (see pic below).
Though he did offer a one piece saddle on request - as the EMG US pickup was considered to be the best back then ('80's) OH, note the serial No. in that picture.
here is a picture of Lowden No. 1.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/uilleann49/P1000291.jpg
 



and the '88 - #717,


sorry to go off topic.