Fidel Castro

jonnyburgo

Went to Havana about 16yrs ago, shithole full of beggars. The women had nice bottoms though.

Brad

Chalky said:

Oh, so he became a murderous despotic tyrant to save Cubans from American Imperialism? Executing thousands of Cubans was doing them a favour? You've spent a few weeks in Cuba as a tourist so now you can judge the people and their situation?

He was anti-American, so he is appealing to those who share that anti-American sentiment. "My enemy's enemy is my friend". And for that you turn a blind eye to his evil crimes.

You remind me of the neighbour interviewed on TV who said "I knew Fred and Rose West, they were nice people".  

No, he did that to cling to power and is throughly disgusting. Don't worry, it's not lost on me that visiting somewhere as a tourist doesn't equate to living there. But it's afforded me a limited, but better first hand experience of what life is like there for people than you have. I've not judged the people and their situation at all, just giving my opinion of my admittedly brief experience in the place. If you read a previous post, I say there is a LOT that made me feel uncomfortable and didn't like, but then maybe you didn't notice that part. It is the spirit and the resourcefulness of the Cuban people that I admire in the face of such needless hardship. Is that because of Castro, or in spite of him? Probably both...

I haven't turned a blind eye to his crimes at all, I'm fully aware of them and nor am I anti-American. But the US does have a lot to answer for regarding foreign policy, be it in Latin America or the Middle East. As much as Castro shouldn't be allowed to get off scot free neither should successive US administrations.

It's not a black and white situation, I wish it was that simple. Perhaps I'd then understand what it would be like to live inside your head

scrumhalf

ICBM said:

, he supposedly survived over 600 assassination plots

His diary must have been interesting.

Tuesday
Got up, had breakfast (leaving poisoned bit to one side), gave four-hour public speech on the benefits of socialism, dodged four bullets, had dinner, bodyguard caught someone with a knife lurking under the bed, went to sleep.

Wednesday
Not much different from Tuesday except today it was the dinner that was poisoned, not breakfast.

Sassafras

I wonder if the Americans had managed to overthrow Castro would the situation in Cuba be as stable as the one that the Iraqis are currently enjoying?

Chalky

Its quite simple. People who knowingly, willingly and carefully seek out specific innocent individuals and kill them are evil. Which bit doesn't clash with your moral compass?

The dead weren't 'collateral damage' in some shoot-out or a bombing campaign or a 'mission that went wrong'. That would be bad enough to be despicable (I'm looking at you two, Mr Bush and Mr Blair).

The dead were singled out, arrested, tortured to try to get the names of other innocents, then executed. It was made clear to their families that any further dissent by relatives would be dealt with similarly.

But go ahead and defend him.

I can hear the Doug and Dinsdale Piranha sketch....

Evilmags

Cuban GDP at the time of the revolution was close to France. Castro took over 50 years of development from his people. That is evil in its purest form. At least Pinochet left a functioning country behind where people can eat ect. 

Snap

Brad said:

I felt safer walking around there at night than in many places I've been to on my travels whether at home or abroad.  

That's more likely a factor of it being a communist state, than anything else. I travel a fair bit, working all over the world. The safest places you are likely to experience are communist states - they daren't commit crimes as they don't know who is watching. Really.

Regardless of what the US did, Castro was a despot who did some terrible things to his people. I find any eulogising sickening. As for Corbyn, and what he said about Castro, well he has shown himself up IMO.

No matter how noble some say that the principles of socialism are, it always ends up the same way: dictatorial control, suppression of free expression, and poverty.

Brad

Chalky said:

Its quite simple. People who knowingly, willingly and carefully seek out specific innocent individuals and kill them are evil. Which bit doesn't clash with your moral compass?

The dead weren't 'collateral damage' in some shoot-out or a bombing campaign or a 'mission that went wrong'. That would be bad enough to be despicable (I'm looking at you two, Mr Bush and Mr Blair).

The dead were singled out, arrested, tortured to try to get the names of other innocents, then executed. It was made clear to their families that any further dissent by relatives would be dealt with similarly.

But go ahead and defend him.

I can hear the Doug and Dinsdale Piranha sketch....

Guantanamo Bay? Countless examples of rendition (that we know about). Maybe look into the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formally School Of The Americas).

The US may not have pulled the trigger, but they funded and trained those that committed just as many if not more atrocities across Latin America. They got other people to do their dirty work.

And me saying that is not defending Castro, who here as actually defended him or his human rights record? It's pointing out that the narrative is so easy to manipulate and that's the same for both sides of the situation, no one is blameless. 

Snap said:

Brad said:

I felt safer walking around there at night than in many places I've been to on my travels whether at home or abroad.  

That's more likely a factor of it being a communist state, than anything else. I travel a fair bit, working all over the world. The safest places you are likely to experience are communist states - they daren't commit crimes as they don't know who is watching. Really.

Regardless of what the US did, Castro was a despot who did some terrible things to his people. I find any eulogising sickening. As for Corbyn, and what he said about Castro, well he has shown himself up IMO.

No matter how noble some say that the principles of socialism are, it always ends up the same way: dictatorial control, suppression of free expression, and poverty.

That's an absolute fair and valid point and something that was on my mind of course. Tourists are indeed a sacred commodity and punishment will be severe. But people weren't hiding away from tourists afraid to interact and speak openly and freely about life there.

Brad

Evilmags said:

Cuban GDP at the time of the revolution was close to France. Castro took over 50 years of development from his people. That is evil in its purest form. At least Pinochet left a functioning country behind where people can eat ect. 

But it doesn't matter that thousands of people where tortured and/or killed in a football stadium. Or that he seized power with CIA funding over a democratically elected leader?

Nobody comes out of any of these situations looking good and fingers of blame can be pointed in all directions. That's my point. 

scrumhalf

What is interesting is, assuming some form of capitalism prevails after Castro jnr pops his clogs, how the country will react.

Several people I spoke to out there mentioned the inertia amongst the population caused by having the state provide everything for them.

Evilmags

Their are 2.5 million capitalist Cubans waiting to come back, which would create huge opportunities for Cuba as they have money and know how to generate wealth. 

Evilmags

Brad said:

Evilmags said:

Cuban GDP at the time of the revolution was close to France. Castro took over 50 years of development from his people. That is evil in its purest form. At least Pinochet left a functioning country behind where people can eat ect. 

But it doesn't matter that thousands of people where tortured and/or killed in a football stadium. Or that he seized power with CIA funding over a democratically elected leader?

Nobody comes out of any of these situations looking good and fingers of blame can be pointed in all directions. That's my point. 

Had Allende kept power Chile could well be as poor today as Venezuela. Pinochet was neither pleasent nor ethical, but totally wreaking a country of 11 million is a different level of evil. Chileans post Pinochet were vastly better off than Cubans today (and Portuguese and Greeks). 

scrumhalf

Evilmags said:

Their are 2.5 million capitalist Cubans waiting to come back, which would create huge opportunities for Cuba as they have money and know how to generate wealth. 

True, but the contempt (to put it mildly) which I observed the Cubans had towards the exiles suggests it wouldn't be plain sailing.

crunchman

scrumhalf said:

Evilmags said:

Their are 2.5 million capitalist Cubans waiting to come back, which would create huge opportunities for Cuba as they have money and know how to generate wealth. 

True, but the contempt (to put it mildly) which I observed the Cubans had towards the exiles suggests it wouldn't be plain sailing.

I doubt the kind of people who would have expressed different views would have been allowed near you - or if they had been, they would have been too scared to express them.

Saw this linked today from an American Football site.  It's written by an exile who's now a journalist.  It's partly about Colin Kaepernick but it did open my eyes about Castro:

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article117033883.html

fields5069

Fretwired said:

Cuban cartoon ...

In Portugese?

ICBM

Evilmags said:

Cuban GDP at the time of the revolution was close to France. Castro took over 50 years of development from his people. That is evil in its purest form. At least Pinochet left a functioning country behind where people can eat ect. 

That's true, but the poverty in Cuba is at least partly due to the US trade blockade. On the other hand the US actively supported Pinochet.

We have no real idea how much of the relative difference is down to their governments, no matter how much you like to blame socialism.

scrumhalf

crunchman said:

scrumhalf said:

Evilmags said:

Their are 2.5 million capitalist Cubans waiting to come back, which would create huge opportunities for Cuba as they have money and know how to generate wealth. 

True, but the contempt (to put it mildly) which I observed the Cubans had towards the exiles suggests it wouldn't be plain sailing.

I doubt the kind of people who would have expressed different views would have been allowed near you - or if they had been, they would have been too scared to express them.

Saw this linked today from an American Football site.  It's written by an exile who's now a journalist.  It's partly about Colin Kaepernick but it did open my eyes about Castro:

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article117033883.html

I don't know if you've been to Cuba, but one of the things that was most interesting when I was there was how many people do actually come up to you and talk.

Cirrus

Brad said:

It's not a black and white situation, I wish it was that simple. Perhaps I'd then understand what it would be like to live inside your head

You are now my hero.

Also, that stretch where ICBM calmly and reasonably dealt with Chalky's mad ranting and raving made me chuckle out loud. It's like Chalky is responding to a totally different conversation in some alternate dimension where everyone in this thread is blindly praising Castro, except his posts are leaking through into this universe somehow.

Snap

Brad said:

That's an absolute fair and valid point and something that was on my mind of course. Tourists are indeed a sacred commodity and punishment will be severe. But people weren't hiding away from tourists afraid to interact and speak openly and freely about life there.

yeah, I think it's true to say that anywhere I've been where the state is dictatorial, the chances of getting into agro are zero. And usually, the people are great, really friendly.