The state of Ebony (and other woods)

Rabs

I know this has probably been posted before but I do think its an important subject that we should all know about as builders and players. This vid is already five years old and things are probably worse now..

But I think as Bob says...  We really need to get people to understand that some of the very traditional woods that a lot of people expect to see on a guitar are now endangered so we all need to get used to seeing non pure black ebony and other types of mahogany etc..  For instance I use Utile quite a lot which is a kind of African mahogany, I find it an amazing wood its really pretty and harder then genuine mahogany so makes better neck wood too... But most people are not aware of what it is.

Anyway.. Im not here to tell anyone what to do or finger wag..  that's not what this is about...  I just think people need to be aware of whats going  on and that we should all be looking at more sustainable woods... Even Gibson use Sapele and call it Mahogany and I think they should be more up front about it all.

mrshankly

Utile sounds worth a try, where do you get it?

WezV

I have used utile kerfing, never more than that.  What's the weight like, that seems to be the deal breaker for many mahogany alternatives

Rabs

Ohh, I was really lucky when I got my first batch of wood..  I got it from a local joinery company who make massive frames and stair cases and stuff like that...  They had a shipping container load of offcuts and let me pillage it    So I haven't ordered it from anywhere specific as such but im sure you can get it pretty easy over here

Heres a couple of examples..  This is from one of my Half and Half guitars which is all Utile but with two different types of cut so one side shows straight grain and the other side is curly (ish) grain

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/RabsWood Web Pics/DSC01626_zpsfv4jpcgf.jpg

And then this one which is also all utile..  and has like a neck through piece with wings

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/DSC01712_zpsssddlkub.jpg

Rabs

WezV said:

I have used utile kerfing, never more than that.  What's the weight like, that seems to be the deal breaker for many mahogany alternatives

Well like most woods there are heavier and lighter bits to be had.... but id say in general its a tad heavier ..  not much in it I think.... However this is why people like Gibson do weight relief..  Because the "genuine" mahogany is all but gone.

Which is why I say we need to get used to using alternatives because it wont be long before we have no choice.

nick_s

I remember watching this a few years back, struck me then how wasteful the harvesting was, and still strikes me today.  We don't mind inclusions on say spalted maple, so why not ebony?  Besides, we want it black, we can stain it black.  

Sporky

I'm quite tempted to try a composite shell, foam core build.

I predict it will sound like a guitar.

WezV

I'm all for alternatives, just tend to prefer the lighter ones these days.  But I have built with English ash, iroko and some rather heavy  Sapelli.

Meranti seems pretty good at the lighter end of the spectrum, but the grain can be a bit fuzzy and even too soft for some things.... I wouldn't trust trem posts in it for example

WezV

I should say I have had 3 separate large hauls of reclaimed genuine mahogany.  Perfect wood, but not always perfect sizes.   Keeps me happy. There is plenty still out there for those that don't need large supplies


... and Swiss cheese style weight relief only does so much.  The Gibson 5-7 hole style won't remove much more than half a pound.  You need to chamber to see a real reduction, but it brings more tonal changes

Rabs

WezV said:

I'm all for alternatives, just tend to prefer the lighter ones these days.  But I have built with English ash, iroko and some rather heavy  Sapelli.

Meranti seems pretty good at the lighter end of the spectrum, but the grain can be a bit fuzzy and even too soft for some things.... I wouldn't trust trem posts in it for example

Yeah I agree about meranti,..  Its a bit boring to look at and the softer stuff as you say is actually fuzzy to the touch its so soft lol..  but then I have also seen some harder varieties of meranti that were very mahogany like.. So I guess its about finding the right batch.

And yes indeed there are stashes of genuine mahogany and even pure black ebony still about.. But for how long?

And with Gibson... Well they do different types..  You have the traditional swiss cheese and then the new modern wheel  spoke type relief which takes much more out of the body. And now they have the new Ultra Modern weight relief for 2017 which no one knows what it is yet.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/986927gibsonweightrelief_zpsbn57avyi.jpg

Rabs

Sporky said:

I'm quite tempted to try a composite shell, foam core build.

I predict it will sound like a guitar.

Haha, indeed......  Ive seen guitars made from clay, glass, plastic, a toilet seat, concrete and even cardboard (that fender I posted the other day) and guess what, they all sounded like electric guitars  

Rabs

mrshankly said:

Utile sounds worth a try, where do you get it?

Ohh and by the way...  as you may know wood names can be spelt different to how its pronounced...   and Utile is pronounced youtilly 

WezV

Rabs said:

WezV said:

I'm all for alternatives, just tend to prefer the lighter ones these days.  But I have built with English ash, iroko and some rather heavy  Sapelli.

Meranti seems pretty good at the lighter end of the spectrum, but the grain can be a bit fuzzy and even too soft for some things.... I wouldn't trust trem posts in it for example

Yeah I agree about meranti,..  Its a bit boring to look at and the softer stuff as you say is actually fuzzy to the touch its so soft lol..  but then I have also seen some harder varieties of meranti that were very mahogany like.. So I guess its about finding the right batch.

And yes indeed there are stashes of genuine mahogany and even pure black ebony still about.. But for how long?

And with Gibson... Well they do different types..  You have the traditional swiss cheese and then the new modern wheel  spoke type relief which takes much more out of the body. And now they have the new Ultra Modern weight relief for 2017 which no one knows what it is yet.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/986927gibsonweightrelief_zpsbn57avyi.jpg

I hope you don't think I am disagreeing with the point of the thread... but  if you have to change construction methods to make a wood suitable you suddenly have two things to convince  people are okay. 

the variations on weight relief are really a different subject, but the traditionalists see Swiss cheese holes as more acceptable than the CNC methods... but  it's the CNC chambers that give the best weight reduction, and the bigger tonal change.  We have had people state on this forum they wouldn't touch any type of LP with chambers or weight relief


Bobs message on ebony has worked, taken a few years but you now see streaky ebony on the performances etc...

Rabs

WezV said:

 

I hope you don't think I am disagreeing with the point of the thread... but  if you have to change construction methods to make a wood suitable you suddenly have two things to convince  people are okay. 

the variations on weight relief are really a different subject, but the traditionalists see Swiss cheese holes as more acceptable than the CNC methods... but  it's the CNC chambers that give the best weight reduction, and the bigger tonal change.  We have had people state on this forum they wouldn't touch any type of LP with chambers or weight relief


Bobs message on ebony has worked, taken a few years but you now see streaky ebony on the performances etc...

Yes this is the exact point.   Genuine mahogany really was the perfect wood in terms of sound, weight, workability and looks..  The issue is that its all gone (well mostly).. And the trees that are left are now on the endangered species list. While there are still some stock piles around the world it wont be long before we cant get any ay all...  SO its not about being green so much as the fact that we HAVE to get used to using alternative woods than what they used in the 50s and 60s... 

That old early mahogany is actually pretty light stuff... You just don't get hog like that with the modern growth trees. So its a fact that we have to get used to using alternative woods at one point or another.

Ohh and im all too familiar with what some people think about LPs with weight relief (ive been on the Gibson forum for almost 5 years and see that argument again and again)..  And they have been doing that on pretty much every Les Paul since the 80s. Im sorry but plugged in and playing distorted which most of us do, I defy ANYONE to be able to tell the difference between a weight relieved guitar and a non weight relieved one. Guitarists can be really silly sometimes.

I myself have a Les Paul Classic 1960..  And its weight relieved even though it weights almost 11 lbs...   The reason they started weight relief in the first place was because of complaints about the Norlin era guitars that were coming in at like 15lbs plus and anyone who wants to wear a 15lb guitar for a show must be very strong  or begging for punishment. 

WezV

have you seen my thread here
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/55672/build-thread-pancake-body-les-paul-deluxe/p1

like i said, i have loads of good old mahogany, the problem is most of it is in the wrong sizes so my compromise for now is building in multiple pieces... but i will be back to the alternatives once it runs out or i find another stash 

sadly, the cheap alternatives that work really well don;t stay cheap for long