Wheelchair user takes precedence over a mother and two babies in a double-buggy?

fretmeister

Ffs!

The judgment does NOT go as far as removing people from the bus, only from the space.

Gassage

Here's a question; what's your view on kids (school age and above) sitting on seats when older people are standing on tubes and buses?

fretmeister

Gassage said:

Here's a question; what's your view on kids (school age and above) sitting on seats when older people are standing on tubes and buses?

Just older than the kids? Or old like in the last quarter of the game old?
Just old? or Old and infirm? Or young and infirm too?
Young and paid for their ticket -v- old and got a free bus pass?

Old and getting off 1 stop later -v- young and going long distance?

Sporky

impmann said:

It is purely my opinion that £5.5k is excessive for being mildly inconvenienced.

Is that what the £5.5k was for?

No.

Never was.

TheBlueWolf

Am  I in the minority who read the judgement? It stated that the mother wasn't simply chucked off a bus, she was asked to fold her buggy down first.

I've got two daughters so yes I'm quite aware of how fragile babies are and how totally reliant on their parents or other care providers. I've had several experiences of attempting to balance my eldest daughter on my knee on a London bus.

I understand there's a fine balance between a buggy or a wheelchair bound person but I think the correct decision was  made. In an ideal situation this conversation wouldn't need  to happen as everyone can get on a bus an go to work, lunch, school or whatever without any hassle but life isn't always quite so idyllic

PolarityMan

fretmeister said:

impmann said:

TheBlueWolf said:

@impmann I shouldn't really have to explain what myself and others are pointing out but yes you are in the wrong for thinking that a mother with a buggy takes priority over a wheelchair bound man who has permanently lost the use of his legs as is @Chalky
As for whether or not any compensation claimed is excessive, I'm going with the legal expert of the forum

Erm... no I never said that, chap. If you read what I said, it was that "Nobody is more important than anyone else - able bodied, disabled, mother and child etc, and this idea of a 'pecking order' is frankly revolting."

Using this particular event as the example: an infant is actually more fragile than this particular grown man in a wheelchair, so chucking the mother and baby off the bus would actually be worse for the infant concerned and as I made the point holding a very small child in your arms in a moving vehicle is very dangerous. So in this particular scenario, nobody could 'win' could they?

I totally agree about a point made earlier about the bus company needing to give more space over to folding seats - having taken an infant on a bus (not through choice) its hell, and there isn't enough room... Factor in someone else needing the space due to a disability and I can see how the argument began. Frankly, I wouldn't get off a bus with my son if he was still an infant in that scenario - not because I'm a git or anti-disabled or any of that bobbins, its because as a parent I'd put MY SON'S welfare above everyone else, because at that age a child is 100% reliant on the parent to ensure their safety, comfort etc. But hey, lone voice yet again so I'll disappear and leave you all alone to agree with each other.

Thanks for the clarification on the compensation @fretmeister and not being smug about it. After all, legalese is designed to confuse and keep the legal profession in work - it isn't for us little people, is it?

Legalese is not designed to confuse. It's just a technical subject no different from any other.

Would you claim that the technical manual for an anti-virus computer product was designed to confuse and keep the programmers in work? Of course not. Would you call those of us who are at the mercy of a computer virus but don't understand how to deal with them the "little people"

Are patients "little people" because they don't understand the technical issues in pharmacology?

Doctors will speak to other doctors in complex yet fully understood terms and then explain it to the patient in simpler format. 

The language used by any profession is an attempt to avoid confusion between those working in the profession, and just like any other technical subject any person can go to a library and begin to learn about it. 

If a person then wants to learn even more then they can study properly. Just like any other subject.

An attempt to claim that any technical or professional subject is somehow elitist when it can be studied to degree level at almost every single University in the universe is beyond silly.

If this was an anti-virus research paper you were interested in you'd probably start with "Please can someone help me understand this?" - just like I would in that subject. That is the sensible approach.

I got about half way through the appeal last night but was also struck by the meandering narrative quality of it. I admit this is probably the first judgement I've read but  I think most other technical professions where communication between non-technical stakeholders and technical specialists is common actually do a routinely better job of this.

Some conventions for example:

Structure the document at all.
Summarise outcome and changes to status quo at the beginning of the document
Present supporting evidence in the detail usually in order of significance to the outcome rather than by history
Present contrary evidence separately (think pros and cons list).

Even if you consider the sole purpose of the judgement is for other trained professionals to reference I suspect their lives could be made easier by judges producing better structured documents.

fretmeister

No arguments from me there!

It's not the best example I've ever seen.

It common for the judgment to deal with the arguments presented in the same order they were presented. So a judgment can be read pretty much along side a transcript of the hearing itself.

Hearings are naturally flexible. Everyone has a plan, and then the opponent or a Judge shifts to a different point, and then it gets back on track etc. The plan goes out the window.

When judgments get fully published in paper form they usually end up with a short summary of the dispute, and what was "Held" - in other words only the bits of the judgment that were a final decision on a point.

That doesn't usually get done for a while though. Until that happens often the best place is a good legal blog or journal, read with the judgment itself.

Appeals don't usually deal with evidence - they would deal with whether a decision by a more junior judge was correct based on the evidence given to that junior judge.

fretmeister

One for the nerds.

Good use of judgement leads to a good judgment.

Evilmags

I´ve been on plenty of London buses with a small child. Folding up a seat and standing, even while holding the child is hardly that much of a pain in the arse. Being a manner less oik would be a lot worse, and more permanent in its nature.