ii V I..something to try over the V chord

bigjon

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 - 

bigjon said:

 try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 - 

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

--------------

--------------

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 - 

bigjon said:

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

Barney

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 - 

bigjon said:

 try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 - 

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

--------------

--------------

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 - 

bigjon said:

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

very cool....thanks ...ill try some of them...ill get the guitar out later and do some 2 5 1 using the Ebma7 arp...on th V chord....:)

Barney

ok just recorded a little bit using the Ebmaj on the V chord...first time just as the arp and another 2 messing a little bit with it...i tried to really exagerate the V ap

http://soundcloud.com/user5011288/2-2051-20example

 

sorry about the really crap backer just done it really quick..:)

bigjon

bigjon said:

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

As a bonus I stuck another pattern I use all the time over the V chord at 0:34.

The pattern is -

---10---11---13---14--

---10---11---12--------

----------------------------

----------------------------

----------------------------

----------------------------

It's sort-of half-whole dimished with a b6 passing note borrowed from the superlocrian, but I just use it as a fretboard pattern that works. The lick I was playing at 0:34 goes something like

---10---11---13---14---13---11---10----------------10-----------------------

-------------------------------------------------11---12---------12---11---10---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clarky

play this over V with a bit of a swing.. 12/8 stylie

Note: beat 1 of the bar is the 2nd note [so the first note is a little anacrusis]

------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------5--------5---6---7---

4---5-------5------------4---5---7-------7------------------

---------7-------6---7-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Barney

Clarky said:

play this over V with a bit of a swing.. 12/8 stylie

Note: beat 1 of the bar is the 2nd note [so the first note is a little anacrusis]

------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------5--------5---6---7---

4---5-------5------------4---5---7-------7------------------

---------7-------6---7-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

thanks...:)

Clarky

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

Barney

Clarky;18491" said:

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

Not really sure what you mean but I'm all for experimenting...

Clarky

it's actually a really crap joke about jazz...

but funnily enough.. occasionally it actually sounds quite cool.. lol..

Clarky

Clarky said:

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

jeez Clarky you can be such a nob at times...

sheesh..

gonna face palm myself..

EDIT: and just realised that I can't.... lmao...

viz

I dun it for u

Barney

Clarky;18746" said:

Clarky said:

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in





jeez Clarky you can be such a nob at times...

sheesh..

gonna face palm myself..EDIT: and just realised that I can't.... lmao...

Clarky;18746" said:

Clarky said:

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in





jeez Clarky you can be such a nob at times...

sheesh..

gonna face palm myself..EDIT: and just realised that I can't.... lmao...

Haha.....lol ...ill do it ...

Clarky

all this jazz talk made me go and listen to the Vision On gallery tune..

jeez.. it is just soooo cool..

Barney

Clarky;19103" said:

all this jazz talk made me go and listen to the Vision On gallery tune..jeez.. it is just soooo cool..

Haha...elevator music...

Paulo

Barney;13828" said:

ok just recorded a little bit using the Ebmaj on the V chord...first time just as the arp and another 2 messing a little bit with it...i tried to really exagerate the V ap

http://soundcloud.com/user5011288/2-2051-20example

 

sorry about the really crap backer just done it really quick..:)

Sounds good!

viz

Tell you what's nice: if you're playing in, say C, and you're doing some 251 stuff, that'd be d minor, G major (the V), C major. These chords are nice for that:

D minor 7 add9: x 5 7 5 5 x
G altered: 3 2 3 4 4 x
C maj7 add9: x 3 5 4 3 x

(I like that voicing because of the decending chromaticism on the B string)

Then to noodle over that, a clever little option is a pentatonic, a# pentatonic, b pentatonic.

So for the d minor chord, I'm playing a minor pentatonic, which only contains notes that are in d minor, though it has the supertonic (the 2nd, E) instead of the mediant (the minor 3rd, F) - so like the chord voicing I use, it accentuates the 2nd note of d minor rather than the 3rd.

Then for the G altered chord, I just move my pentatonic shape up a fret to the A# minor pentatonic. This pentatonic scale only contains notes that are in G super locrian, which is a great scale to play over the V chord.

Then for the cmaj7, I shift up another fret to play b minor pentatonic. Now C major's relative minor is a minor, so by rights I should be playing a minor penta, but by playing b minor penta, I'm accentuating the B, which is the leading note of C major, and the D, which is the supertonic of C major (both of which fit into the voicing I'm using on the chord, x 3 5 4 3 x - that 4th fret on the B string and 5th fret on the G string in the chord), and there's a new note in the pentatonic lick, the F#, fret 7 on the B string. This F# is not in Cmaj7, it's C's augmented 4th, so it gives the last chord a nice Lydian feel.

It's really easy, you just stick to the pentatonic shapes and go up a semitone for each chord change and it sounds lovely. Instant jazz.

GuyBoden

I think what's needed is using your ears to hear the tensions. If you can't hear the tension notes and resolve them nicely, you're just playing bollocks, running scales is like a running a tap. Turn the tap off and play some music.

Ears are everything.

(Yes, I can play all the scales under the sun, but only for fretboard practice.)

stuartryanmusic

A really nice idea on a V7 chord is to play a Major triad from the root (in this case D) and then simply move the triad up or down in minor thirds. So over D7 you'd end up with D Major - F Major - Ab Major - B Major. These can be combined in any order but give you all the altered tones without having to think about Superlocrian or whole tone etc. If you can connect all the various inversions in one position it's easy to get some great outside ideas or simply moving the same shape up the fretboard in minor thirds gives a line great symmetry. Larry Carlton amongst others has used this approach for years. 

viz

Brilliant - sounds very outside!

thomasross20

Wow.... I'll never be a jazz player.