?¿? SO ~ How loud is TOO LOUD ~ Half a Million Watts do it for you ?¿?

ChrisMusic

140 db peaks *at the desk*   ~   just under 100yds from the stage !

~ classical instruments can be searingly loud, but it takes rock to provide the serious raw power...

BTW ~ I take hearing protection very seriously, and so should you !

More power – is 523kW enough?

"However, ever more powerful amplifiers were used as bands wanted the sound ever louder, and eventually PA systems moved on from the stacks either side of the stage to ‘flown’ arrays, suspended high above the stage and audience – but not before Iron Maiden set the record at Castle Donington in 1988 for the world’s largest PA system.

As the 2000 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records noted, ‘Largest PA system: On Aug 20th 1988 at the Castle Donington “Monsters of Rock” Festival a total of 360 Turbosound cabinets offering a potential 523kW of programme power, formed the largest front-of-house PA. The average Sound Pressure Level at the mixing tower was 118dB, peaking at a maximum of 124 dB during Iron Maiden’s set. It took five days to set up the system."

I will bet that the pure sound quality was in advance of anything in use today, given the trends for line arrays, digital processing and storage, and constant cost cutting.  I have to admit partial responsibility for the madness, but it WAS QUIETER than the setup sound checks !   The system was an amalgamation of Brit Row's system for Donnington and Iron Maiden's own system.  The extra headroom thus gained reduced the potential of hearing damage from distortion generated in the power amps and drivers, which is a *significant issue* even in small PAs, do not underestimate that, it is an integral, not just pure SPL.  This is from a post by one of the guys who was also there:

"we were seeing peaks of 140db at the FOH desk and a steady figure of over 130db which were accurately measured by a quality SPL meter not one of the cheap Chinese ones about nowadays----These sound levels were measured on the teatime the day before the venue was opened to the public and after all the system tweaks had been finalized.

Everyone involved with the production admitted that the levels were far too loud for comfort---don't forget, in those days there were a lot of really good FOH engineers that had worldwide experience of working with extremely loud rock and roll PA rigs and for everyone to agree that it was a bit too loud meant that it really was in your face----Result was that the system was run well within its max limits for the gig and due to the ample headroom that was gained, it really did sound awesome in quality along with power at a pretty high levels of sound---124db at FOH position is still VERY LOUD---especially when you think that a lot of live venues now have max SPLs of less than 100db."

Also to be noted:  "The FOH position was just under 100yds from the stage and I would say that the full width pic of the PA and stage was probably taken off one end of the follow spot gantry above the mixing desks.

As far as the SPL goes, it was quieter the closer to the stage that you walked on the day of the gig so when you were standing directly in front of the stacks it was not overloud----It was only when you got to the FOH platforms that both sides of the PA just seemed to couple up and it was just like a brick wall of sound hitting you hence the reason to reduce levels as it really was painfull and it also created the problem of no-one being able to hear any cues or even anything on the talkback system."

kjdowd

Very, very silly. Perhaps even a little stupid. But bloody marvellous all the same. 

UnclePsychosis

The loudest gig I think I've ever been to was Mogwai at Cabaret Voltaire in Edinburgh. 

Cab Vol is basically an underground cavern with a really low roof and solid brick walls everywhere. Never been so glad to be wearing earplugs. 

ICBM

You've got to love Maiden... probably the closest to Disaster Area that the real world gets .

The personification of surreal rock excess coupled with actually remarkably sensible use of the available technology. Any band that flies around the world in their own private custom-graphic Boeing 747 with the lead singer at the controls wins, basically...

Sadly I've never really been able to get into their music though .

Alnico

ICBM said:

You've got to love Maiden... probably the closest to Disaster Area that the real world gets .

The personification of surreal rock excess coupled with actually remarkably sensible use of the available technology. Any band that flies around the world in their own private custom-graphic Boeing 747 with the lead singer at the controls wins, basically...

Sadly I've never really been able to get into their music though .

Try Dance of Death and Brave New World.
They're just as ingenious but a step away from the traditional sound.

Moss

UnclePsychosis said:

The loudest gig I think I've ever been to was Mogwai at Cabaret Voltaire in Edinburgh. 

Cab Vol is basically an underground cavern with a really low roof and solid brick walls everywhere. Never been so glad to be wearing earplugs. 

Pretty sure Mogwai gave me hearing damage when I saw them - gigs have seemed less trebly since

Awesome, all the same

wayneirie

That's a big comb filter.  

Sporky

ChrisMusic said:

I will bet that the pure sound quality was in advance of anything in use today

I'd put the Barbican's hall system up against an over-loud Turbosound rig any day.

And there are a lot of awesome PA systems out there now - the art has come on enormously as you'd expect with nearly 30 years' development.

bbill335

UnclePsychosis said:

The loudest gig I think I've ever been to was Mogwai at Cabaret Voltaire in Edinburgh. 

Cab Vol is basically an underground cavern with a really low roof and solid brick walls everywhere. Never been so glad to be wearing earplugs. 

Sounds like the library in Birmingham, where I saw Mudhoney. They were very loud, but not as loud as their support METZ. That was a couple days' recovery and got me to think about plugs.

UnclePsychosis

bbill335 said:

UnclePsychosis said:

The loudest gig I think I've ever been to was Mogwai at Cabaret Voltaire in Edinburgh. 

Cab Vol is basically an underground cavern with a really low roof and solid brick walls everywhere. Never been so glad to be wearing earplugs. 

Sounds like the library in Birmingham, where I saw Mudhoney. They were very loud, but not as loud as their support METZ. That was a couple days' recovery and got me to think about plugs.

You can see the stage at the back of this photo. Needless to say the 'gwai were a tad loud in here...

ChrisMusic

@wayneirie said:

That's a big comb filter.  

Iron Maiden's system  - 96+ Turbosound TMS 3 boxes +24 Turbosound 24" sub-bass augmented* with Turbosound "Flashlight" boxes powered by QSC and BSS amplifiers and controlled by a Soundcraft series-4 mixing desk. BSS crossovers and Klark Teknik equalisers.

Total cabinet count, including *Brit Row's, was 360 Turbosound cabs

There is / was a pretty tight polar pattern on the older TMS3 cabs, and the then new Flashlight was designed to be a tight "point source", so if the array is set up correctly in three dimensions you got a pretty flat and phase coherent response.

Although the pic is quite low resolution, you can make out the multidimensional curvature of the arrays either side of the stage.

I think you had to be there to appreciate the quality of sound, and covering a large festival site with significant SPL and low distortion is no mean feat.

ChrisMusic

Here is Iron Maiden's gear list for anyone interested:

Monitors      - 10 Turbosound bi-radial wedges

                6 Turbosound TMS 3 boxes

                4 Tasco/Community sidefill frames

                2 Turbosound McBrain specials for drumfill

                1 pair P.R.S. personal monitoring headphones

                14 channels controlled by Soundcraft series-4 monitor board

                Klark Technic and Court equalizers

                Effects by Drawmer, DBX and Yamaha

                QSC and Carver amplifiers

                Power systems by MGM transformers and Claude-Lyons stabilisers

PA system     - 96 Turbosound TMS 3 boxes

                24 Turbosound sub-lows, in some festivals (e.g. Donington)

                   augmented with Turbosound "Flashlight" boxes

                All are powered by QSC and BSS amplifiers and controlled by

                   a Soundcraft series-4 mixing desk. BSS crossovers and

                   Klark Technik equalisers.

                Front of house effects by Aphex, Urie, AMS, Eventide, Audio

                   Design, Yamaha, BSS and DBX compression

bazxkr

I was at the Guiness book of records 1973 Deep Purple gig at the Rainbow that hit 117db think it was. That stayed as the loudest for many years. Inside an auditorium that was punishing. The bass notes actually rattled your spine & ribs.

Top that with a 20 min strobe light session you came out with whistling ears and on/off vision. Great gig but sure damage was done to many.

Ravenous

I have a picture in my head of an elderly Bruce Dickinson conducting a singalong in his Old Folks Home...

"Happy Meadows, Scream for me!"

"PAAARDON?"

Reverend

I saw Cathedral play at Damnation festival a few years back and it was 129 db. 

guitarfishbay

I've never been to a rock/metal gig that was quiet enough to not need hearing protection.

fretfinder

ICBM said:

You've got to love Maiden... probably the closest to Disaster Area that the real world gets. 

With frontman Hotblack Desiato - possibly the best ever reuse of the name of an estate agency!  

ChrisMusic

guitarfishbay said:

I've never been to a rock/metal gig that was quiet enough to not need hearing protection.

The quality and purity of the sound, obviously depending on source material, and venue acoustics has a big effect on perceived volume and the energy which your ears are receiving.  But as you, me, and others have said, there are ridiculous levels used at gigs and festivals.

A certain level of sound is necessary to get away from the feel of everyday life, and get the sense of occasion and the adrenalin flowing, but...

If you are forced to use ear protection, that rather undermines the whole 'tone game' as it never sounds the same as the 'in the room' sound, or the record if that is the goal.  Elsewise you are repaying the (hopefully) paying audience by risking long term hearing damage.  It always strikes me as a bizarre equation.

JezWynd

 risking long term hearing damage

Wisdom awarded. It's ludicrous the way that some folk blather on about tone etc when the music is being played at pain inducing levels necessitating ear protection. Maybe I'm missing something and the pain is the pleasure?

The best live concert sound I've heard was Belle & Sebastian at Brighton Dome. A large band with strings and horns but every instrument could be heard with exceptional clarity. It wasn't loud but filled the hall and allowed the music content to give the emotional punch. 

Danny1969

The Turbosound Flashlight box's that were popular in the late eighties did actually sound very Hi Fi for a large PA. I saw Floyd's MLOR tour at Wembly Stadium and that was a huge Brit Row Turbosound system with additional stacks at the rear for quad sound. That was the best large stadium sound I heard until fairy recenty when I saw Waters do the Wall at the new Wembly

It's the smaller self run gigs you gotta be careful at .... I mean it's not uncommon for a band these days to take a 3KW class D system into a smallish pub and that kind of power ran untrained in a small environment is probably more deadly than the largest of PA's in a field. There's many local gigs I walk out on if it's too loud

mr-mac

Yes but if speakers were 6db more sensitive it would only need 125,000w ish for same volume as the 500,000w system and the other one I love is when people say no thanks to 8ohm speaker cos their amp produces more watts into 4ohm. Yes but 200w into 4 ohm sound same as 100 into 8.... And tbh you are just increasing the current demands on the amp so more likely to clip it.