Strange world just gets stranger . . .

notanon

All this talk of robots taking over all our jobs. Hah lol!

This same argument has been discussed in lots of literature and other books my favourite being The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist (TRTP - abvailable for free and highly recommended). Imagine a world where the robots make the food, build the houses, . . . erm, . .  who would need a job? In that book based around life in early 1900s in UK people argued "Mechanisation is what is taking our jobs. That and immigration". Ring a bell? The same old BS being fed to use.

I've informally studied different aspects of economy and banking. This latest round of debt we are in has been created and cashed in via Structured investments vehicles, Credit default swaps, Collateralised Debt Obligations, .  . . . courtesy of the banksters none of that money is 'real' but it is still a promise to pay and that is what Joe public will do - honour that debt!?! The government on the other hand contributes to our debt buy exploding bombs, that cost will never be recuperated, spending huge amounts of money ensuring the rules are enforced which benefit their peers, . . .

None of the above creates anything, they just leech out of a system that could function perfectly well without them if some other Mother F**** didn't step in their place.

As an example I have just renewed insurances here. What percentage of people in the insurance industry are paid to figure out ways to grab customers back? Actuarial scientists are replaced by statistical analysts not assessing risk but looking at ways to grab new customers and assessing how long they can gouge those new customers before they realise they lose those customers. That money does not contribute to insurances being paid it is just another scam paid for by ourselves. This misuse of resources is prevalent in most industries I have seen.

Anyway - bring on any robot that would do the mundane jobs I say!

END OF RANT - SORRY. 

Sporky

Robots are pretty cool. Good point.

Fretwired

It's not robots you have to worry about it's AI ... millions of jobs will just disappear.

TheBlueWolf

I'd avoid watching any of the "Terminator" series

Sambostar

Al....Aliens?

Fretwired

Interesting read ... http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/08/06/future-of-jobs/

notanon

Fretwired said:

It's not robots you have to worry about it's AI ... millions of jobs will just disappear.

That is the point. Seen any details of say miners down a pit in the early 1900s who wants to do that. Robots + AI will just mean a chef, butler, chauffer, personal assistant, . . .

I ain't got a problem with the above! :-)

thecolourbox

My biggest concern about robots is that at present we can't seem to build computers that don't freeze, or copiers that don't screw up paper, etc etc, therefore how on earth would we building moving computers with brains well enough to succeed?

rlw

Robots won't pay tax and NIC and will not contribute to the economy in any way as far as I can see.  They will boost profits in some cases but CT is at a lower rate than ever so not great news.

Modulus_Amps

notanon said:

Anyway - bring on any robot that would do the mundane jobs I say!

^ this is the problem with most of the well educated west, the result is those who are thick are the ones who are out of jobs and the ones who are clever and design the robots are filthy rich.

When I first came to the UK I worked in a potato sorting factory, lots of hard worker, mostly really nice genuine people, but paid so poorly that many had to work a 70h a week and did not have a strong enough education to do better.

Luckily for me I can design robots, but I do still try and maintain a social conscience.

Winny_Pooh

thecolourbox said:

My biggest concern about robots is that at present we can't seem to build computers that don't freeze, or copiers that don't screw up paper, etc etc, therefore how on earth would we building moving computers with brains well enough to succeed?

They don't have to be as smart as humans, just cheaper for the job intended. Look at supermarket checkouts, one supervisor replaces at least 3 cashiers. 

The first to go will be logistics, self driving trucks cars etc. Recently there was a fully automated good delivery in California. 

Online shopping has already killed off a fair bit of the high street and retail jobs, now imagine if they automate the warehouses even more. 

They are even working on robots to replace clothing manufacturing workers, complex but not impossible, just look at how automated a car assembly line has become. 

Rocker

Robots are used to build cars so nothing new there. We have killed off Banking jobs by our acceptance and use of Cash Dispensers. We fill our cars with petrol and fill our shopping trolleys ourselves. We are the biggest culprits in killing jobs. It is easy to blame robots but we have to look at self first.

Sporky

thecolourbox said:

My biggest concern about robots is that at present we can't seem to build computers that don't freeze, or copiers that don't screw up paper, etc etc, therefore how on earth would we building moving computers with brains well enough to succeed?

Airbus seem to have made pretty reliable ones.

NelsonP

Haven't tractors got to the point where they can pretty much drive themselves, administering the perfect amount of fertilizer depending on how the crops in each area of the field are doing? It can only be a matter of time before the same tractors can do the harvesting.

At which point farmers would only need to get up in the morning to send their tractors out to the field and then put them away again at night. The rest of the time they will be able to put their feet up and enjoy the revenue.

There can't be any flaws in that thinking at all can there

jpfamps

The disastrous effects of new technology on jobs has been predicted ever since the industrial revolution cf. the Luddites.

In practice the opposite has been the case; new technology has increased economic activity and raised living standards.

It's also improved massively whole areas of human endeavour. 

I wouldn't want to fly in a hand-made jet airliner for example.

Regardless, trying to turn back the tide of technology is futile.

Maybe there is more noise about potential job loses as AI will eat into white collar jobs.

thecolourbox

Winny_Pooh said:

thecolourbox said:

My biggest concern about robots is that at present we can't seem to build computers that don't freeze, or copiers that don't screw up paper, etc etc, therefore how on earth would we building moving computers with brains well enough to succeed?

They don't have to be as smart as humans, just cheaper for the job intended. Look at supermarket checkouts, one supervisor replaces at least 3 cashiers. 

Except that the ones I encounter on a daily basis, always have a member of staff supervising them (usually pointing out which one is free just in case I've gone temporarily blind) and 50-60% of them are not working at any given time. Add to this the general public's (admittedly inexplicable) inability to use such machines and I think maybe they were not the best example to give

jpfamps

NelsonP said:

Haven't tractors got to the point where they can pretty much drive themselves, administering the perfect amount of fertilizer depending on how the crops in each area of the field are doing? It can only be a matter of time before the same tractors can do the harvesting.

At which point farmers would only need to get up in the morning to send their tractors out to the field and then put them away again at night. The rest of the time they will be able to put their feet up and enjoy the revenue.

There can't be any flaws in that thinking at all can there

In fact that is almost the case now in the US with the massive farms there.

In the UK farms tend to be much smaller so there is a less cost benefit due to the large investment required in equipment.

Even so the amount of labour required to produce our food has plummetted.

The massive increase in farm efficiency since feudal times is why we have such a good standard of living now.

Winny_Pooh

One thing to remember. The world population has doubled since 1970. The odds of us being out of work now due to mechanisation are larger than in the 50's when infrastructure was being built, consumption increased radically and workers in wealthy countries generally had more disposable income. 

Now its a race to the bottom with consumption being more environmentally unfriendly due to increased turnover in day to day goods and volume, plus workers being seen as an expense rather than asset in unskilled labour and everyone living to be unsustainably old for the ecosystem and economy.

notanon

Modulus_Amps said:

notanon said:

Anyway - bring on any robot that would do the mundane jobs I say!

^ this is the problem with most of the well educated west, the result is those who are thick are the ones who are out of jobs and the ones who are clever and design the robots are filthy rich.

When I first came to the UK I worked in a potato sorting factory, lots of hard worker, mostly really nice genuine people, but paid so poorly that many had to work a 70h a week and did not have a strong enough education to do better.

Luckily for me I can design robots, but I do still try and maintain a social conscience.

Oh I do have a conscience alright. Well picked up but very difficult to give a full disposition of what I would plan here. The current problems are stated very well in the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist - read the reviews and tell me it ain't still relevant today. For other aspects of what are possible see ideas like the Venus Project.

notanon

@Winny_Pooh ;

I really really don't think things need to be so kafkaesque but I would fully expect the elite rulers to take us down that road. All the way back to Plato, the best leaders would be the reluctant ones not those seeking the power.

 @jpfamps ;
Neat summary with respect to employment - fully agree.

 @rlw ;
This gets incredibly complicated I think and the best quick argument I can give is why would you need to collect council tax if the robots are doing the work? Will they expect to be paid? What most people forget is that money was meant to facilitate trade. That transitioned into a store of energy which can be called upon at any time from a bank. That seems fine until that money can be used to create money (usury) which in effect is like creating energy out of nothing - impossible, that betrays the laws of physics and something will pay.

Now get this: Money is created out of debt. Most people would think there are odd times where money is printed but they think that when you get a mortgage you are borrowing the money deposited by other people into bank accounts. Wrong! An account is created when you get the mortgage and that money is created out of thin air. See Steve Keen an Australian Economist who proved that. For a quick introduction see: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-want-the-earth-plus-5/

How is it possible to scrap this abuse of power (via money)? After world war one money was tight. I repeat money was tight. The banks were not playing ball. An Austrian town decided to print scrip because they realised that some people wanted to do some work and that some people had work to be done BUT, there was no money so they used their own local money - scrip. Now the benefit of that was that nobody wanted to hoard it - why keep this temporary useless paper. Guess what, the people did not hoard the money they used it to buy tools, to buy seeds to grow things, to pay for improvements. Net result the economy grew rapidly and whilst the rest of the world was in a depression that area grew. People talked of the miracle town which continued to grow but , . . . . blah blah, . . . the banks closed that down.

How powerful is money when it becomes a store of energy which can be controlled by the likes of the World Banks? In 1891 the banks played the pump and dump trick again:

1891 —- “On September 1st 1894 we will not renew our loans under any consideration. On September 1st we will demand our money.  We will foreclose and become mortgagees in possession.  We can take two-thirds of the farms west of the Mississippi, and thousands of them east of the Mississippi as well, at our own price…Then the farmers will become tenants as in England…,” — Memo to members of the  American Bankers Association

Source:  The Congressional Record of April 29, 1913.

You think times have changed?