Indyref2

Axe_meister

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181

So what will the outcome be this time. I personallty think the majority to remain will increase.

guitarfishbay

I think all referendums should be re-run until the right answers are chosen.  That's clearly the way it's supposed to work

Bridgehouse

Maybe we could have one big massive referendum to vote on all the key issues. A big combined independence for scotland/leave the EU/what colour should our bins be job. 



Oh, hang on.. thats what General Elections are for. 

crunchman

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/98787/sturgeon-announces-second-scottish-independence-referendum

not_the_dj

crunchman said:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/98787/sturgeon-announces-second-scottish-independence-referendum

Why is that hidden in speakers corner? Has it turned ugly so quickly?

Bridgehouse

not_the_dj said:

 Has it turned ugly so quickly?

Must resist comment about Mrs Sturgeon........

crunchman

Bridgehouse said:

not_the_dj said:

 Has it turned ugly so quickly?

Must resist comment about Mrs Sturgeon........

You forgot Alex Salmond.  Short of Peter Beardsley I'm not sure you could get much worse.

Bridgehouse

crunchman said:

Bridgehouse said:

not_the_dj said:

 Has it turned ugly so quickly?

Must resist comment about Mrs Sturgeon........

You forgot Alex Salmond.  Short of Peter Beardsley I'm not sure you could get much worse.

Trying really hard not to post picture of the Krankies now..

RocknRollDave

Axe_meister said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181

So what will the outcome be this time. I personallty think the majority to remain will increase.

The outcome will be that there won't be a second referendum. SNP will carry on pushing for one and in a few years Sturgeon will find herself falling out of favour with her own party for not being able to secure a second referendum, a new SNP broom will come sweeping in and ....repeat ad nauseum.

musteatbrain

So if we leave the EU and Scotland leave the U.K. EU immigration law etc.. would this mean me would have to build a trump like wall to keep the Daily Mail happy and keep the Polish out?

Fretwired

not_the_dj said:

crunchman said:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/98787/sturgeon-announces-second-scottish-independence-referendum

Why is that hidden in speakers corner? Has it turned ugly so quickly?

They usually do ... things are simmering at the moment .. ;-)

musteatbrain

Why has stuff been deleted from this?

Deijavoo

musteatbrain said:

So if we leave the EU and Scotland leave the U.K. EU immigration law etc.. would this mean me would have to build a trump like wall to keep the Daily Mail happy and keep the Polish out?

Aye but it's Ms Sturgeon proposing it, and I heard that it will be the English that have to pay for it. I'm sure that's a fact by the way, I read it on MySpace. I think Wales get a bye on that costing.


The Daily Mail, the SNP....Always had a sneaking suspicion you know.

octatonic

Some satirical writer needs to develop a kids book featuring a pissy sturgeon when is always swimming into deep waters, getting into fights with killer whales.

thomasross20

Oh man this is so bad..

TimmyO

I think it's right that our northernmost cousins have a further referendum on independence. The whole basis of the decision is different now we are committed to Brexit. 

Similarly, the whole basis of the UK Leave/Remain decision is entirely different  now that anyone has close to half an idea what the effect will be, and having seen how inaccurate the promises and campaigns turned out to be. 

To pretend that the result of those 2 votes aren't entirely undermined by subsequent events is wilful ignorance/deceit. 

Fretwired

TimmyO said:

Similarly, the whole basis of the UK Leave/Remain decision is entirely different  now that anyone has close to half an idea what the effect will be, and having seen how inaccurate the promises and campaigns turned out to be. 

Why? Genuine question.

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

TimmyO said:

Similarly, the whole basis of the UK Leave/Remain decision is entirely different  now that anyone has close to half an idea what the effect will be, and having seen how inaccurate the promises and campaigns turned out to be. 

Why? Genuine question.

Really?

At the time of the campaigning, significant specific statements were made, or left wilfully uncorrected, like the extra NHS funding, like the controls on immigration and other stuff that played well with people who voted to leave.

Now even if we say that this was all well-intended and sincere, it turned out it wasn't right. We now have clarity on things that were previously somewhere between 'possible' and 'being promoted as would happen'

These things had a massive bearing on the outcome of the vote. 

I don't believe for one minute there WILL be another vote, so I can stomach the "tough luck, this is where we are at and it is happening"

What I can't/am not prepared to accept is that an intelligent person would think that the basis for the decisions that individual voters made remains as valid now as it was then.

There *should* be a proper vote, with a better informed campaign. The one we had makes us look a laughing stock. 
If that better campaign/vote happened, and the result was the same then fine. But this is a sham. 

Bridgehouse

TimmyO said:

Fretwired said:

TimmyO said:

Similarly, the whole basis of the UK Leave/Remain decision is entirely different  now that anyone has close to half an idea what the effect will be, and having seen how inaccurate the promises and campaigns turned out to be. 

Why? Genuine question.

Really?

At the time of the campaigning, significant specific statements were made, or left wilfully uncorrected, like the extra NHS funding, like the controls on immigration and other stuff that played well with people who voted to leave.

Now even if we say that this was all well-intended and sincere, it turned out it wasn't right. We now have clarity on things that were previously somewhere between 'possible' and 'being promoted as would happen'

These things had a massive bearing on the outcome of the vote. 

I don't believe for one minute there WILL be another vote, so I can stomach the "tough luck, this is where we are at and it is happening"

What I can't/am not prepared to accept is that an intelligent person would think that the basis for the decisions that individual voters made remains as valid now as it was then.

There *should* be a proper vote, with a better informed campaign. The one we had makes us look a laughing stock. 
If that better campaign/vote happened, and the result was the same then fine. But this is a sham. 

In a democracy, is it the politicians/campaigners responsibility to ensure the voters are in possession of all of the facts, or the voters responsibility to ensure that they are in full possession of all of the facts, or both?

The sad truth is that all of the facts were available during the referendum campaign. However, many of them were obscured by both campaigning sides doing a poor job of promoting them, or deliberately obfuscating them. 

Our democracy does, unfortunately, rely on voters doing their own thinking and research, rather than taking everything that politicians say to them at face value. Sadly, many voters do take what politicians say to them at face value.

Bidley

How about that emergency budget, eh?

TimmyO

Bridgehouse said:

TimmyO said:

Fretwired said:

TimmyO said:

Similarly, the whole basis of the UK Leave/Remain decision is entirely different  now that anyone has close to half an idea what the effect will be, and having seen how inaccurate the promises and campaigns turned out to be. 

Why? Genuine question.

Really?

At the time of the campaigning, significant specific statements were made, or left wilfully uncorrected, like the extra NHS funding, like the controls on immigration and other stuff that played well with people who voted to leave.

Now even if we say that this was all well-intended and sincere, it turned out it wasn't right. We now have clarity on things that were previously somewhere between 'possible' and 'being promoted as would happen'

These things had a massive bearing on the outcome of the vote. 

I don't believe for one minute there WILL be another vote, so I can stomach the "tough luck, this is where we are at and it is happening"

What I can't/am not prepared to accept is that an intelligent person would think that the basis for the decisions that individual voters made remains as valid now as it was then.

There *should* be a proper vote, with a better informed campaign. The one we had makes us look a laughing stock. 
If that better campaign/vote happened, and the result was the same then fine. But this is a sham. 

In a democracy, is it the politicians/campaigners responsibility to ensure the voters are in possession of all of the facts, or the voters responsibility to ensure that they are in full possession of all of the facts, or both?

The sad truth is that all of the facts were available during the referendum campaign. However, many of them were obscured by both campaigning sides doing a poor job of promoting them, or deliberately obfuscating them. 

Our democracy does, unfortunately, rely on voters doing their own thinking and research, rather than taking everything that politicians say to them at face value. Sadly, many voters do take what politicians say to them at face value.

There is a degree to which that is true, but 2 things:

1. The sitting government had a position on the referendum, and failed to address misinformation
2. The fact that there had to be legal tests afterwards which were closely argued shows that nobody was really in a position to lay out the pros and cons.